Toronto Ontario Line 3 | ?m | ?s

Rainforest said:
Imagine you bought the house 35 years ago, for $200 K. Based on that value, your property tax was say $2K per year.

Fast-forward to this day, the house prices skyrocketed, and now the market value of you house is $1.2M. It is the same house, it didn't get any bigger or better. But if the same tax rate applies to the new market value, then you would have to pay $12K per year in property tax. If you are on a fixed income and can't afford it, then your only option is to sell and move into a less expensive town.
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Why would anyone have the expectation that property taxes remain locked in place for 35 years? If you buy a house, you should be aware of the costs.
 
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Rainforest said:
Imagine you bought the house 35 years ago, for $200 K. Based on that value, your property tax was say $2K per year.

Fast-forward to this day, the house prices skyrocketed, and now the market value of you house is $1.2M. It is the same house, it didn't get any bigger or better. But if the same tax rate applies to the new market value, then you would have to pay $12K per year in property tax. If you are on a fixed income and can't afford it, then your only option is to sell and move into a less expensive town.

Toronto softens that effect, both by having asessed property values somewhat lower than the current market values, and by keeping property tax rates somewhat lower than in the surrounding municipalities.
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tiffer24 said:
Why would anyone have the expectation that property taxes remain locked in place for 35 years? If you buy a house, you should be aware of the costs.
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My taxes are based on the value, not on what I purchased it for. I fully expect that as the market rises, my taxes are going up. If it skyrockets, then either I sell it and move elsewhere, or , I vote for someone that will stop the skyrocketing.

The problem a lot of old people have is they think they are entitled to special treatment because they are old. No. You chose the life you live. Now live with the consequences of it.
 
micheal_can said:
My taxes are based on the value, not on what I purchased it for. I fully expect that as the market rises, my taxes are going up. If it skyrockets, then either I sell it and move elsewhere, or , I vote for someone that will stop the skyrocketing.

The problem a lot of old people have is they think they are entitled to special treatment because they are old. No. You chose the life you live. Now live with the consequences of it.
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But when they purchased, they had no way of knowing the value of their property will rise so much that they will be priced out of town.

I guess you can adopt this approach, and in some way, it leads to economic efficiency. Long-term residents pushed out of town, their houses are purchased by newcomers with good incomes who can pay a lot of tax to the city, the province, and the feds.

And yet, this doesn't feel right somehow.
 
tiffer24 said:
Why would anyone have the expectation that property taxes remain locked in place for 35 years? If you buy a house, you should be aware of the costs.
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Not exactly locked in place, but you could expect them to rise on par with inflation, and hopefully on par with your inflation-adjusted income. Not 10% every year when the inflation is in the 2% range.
 
Rainforest said:
But when they purchased, they had no way of knowing the value of their property will rise so much that they will be priced out of town.

I guess you can adopt this approach, and in some way, it leads to economic efficiency. Long-term residents pushed out of town, their houses are purchased by newcomers with good incomes who can pay a lot of tax to the city, the province, and the feds.

And yet, this doesn't feel right somehow.
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Rainforest said:
Not exactly locked in place, but you could expect them to rise on par with inflation, and hopefully on par with your inflation-adjusted income. Not 10% every year when the inflation is in the 2% range.
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What doesn't seem right is a city complaining they have no money when condos and houses are going for $500k+ What doesn't seem right is when the old people complain about the rise in taxes, but refuse to move.

We are not like the old European cities where the house is owned by several generations.
 
micheal_can said:
What doesn't seem right is a city complaining they have no money when condos and houses are going for $500k+ What doesn't seem right is when the old people complain about the rise in taxes, but refuse to move.

We are not like the old European cities where the house is owned by several generations.
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It is entitlement exemplified.

There is a lot of Ontario outside of Toronto.
 
WislaHD said:
It is entitlement exemplified.

There is a lot of Ontario outside of Toronto.
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Which is why I say tax the ..... out of them. It might push the housing costs down. It might force people to sell.

In the end, it might make building transit more affordable.
 
WislaHD said:
It is entitlement exemplified.

There is a lot of Ontario outside of Toronto.
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While I'm an avid supporter of "there is a lot of Ontario outside of Toronto", as people age, the perspective and what is important changes. A close, life-long friend has spent all of his life in Toronto and in the same house for at least 35 years. Surprised the heck out of all of us since he is a 'bush hog'; ideal vacation is a canoe trip, winter camping, sailing Lake Superior, etc. Work kept him there and when he retired we figured he would bug out, but in the intervening years, he's had medical issues, so established health care specialties loom more importantly. Also, his kids and grandkids are either in the GTA or damn near it, and they will no doubt become more important as he ages. He could easily move and cash in the equity of his house, but to go where. Some people seem to be able to pull up stakes and move to Collingwood or Muskoka, but not everyone, and those that do are putting a massive strain on the health and longterm care systems of their new area, and property taxes of some of these new retirement areas aren't a walk in the park either.
 
micheal_can said:
Which is why I say tax the ..... out of them. It might push the housing costs down. It might force people to sell.

In the end, it might make building transit more affordable.
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I don't think there is a direct relationship between property taxes and housing costs in terms of the real estate market. Places like North Bay and Hunstville, to name just a couple, have both high tax rates and high real estate costs. If you force property taxes extraordinarily high or raise them extraorinarily rapidly, many people aren't going to sell their house for a song. For many, the equity in their house is a significant part of their retirement net worth which can be leveraged. It' not an ideal financial situation but it is reality for many.
 
Coolstar said:
Wouldn't be surprised if this ends up being cancelled if a recession occurs.
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Oddly, I tend toward believing the Ontario Line is the safest proposal of the Ford plan.

It (and Yonge extension) are the most difficult to politically weaponize during an election where government is running large deficits. The others have financial impact isn't particularly good either today or 30 years out.
 
WislaHD said:
I can foresee this government moving ahead with infrastructure projects like this in a recession, while advancing austerity policies across the rest of the budget.
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While you may well be right; its worth saying Austerity/neo-liberal nonsense has at least partly exacerbated this situation, not just here in Ontario, but globally.

Too few hospital beds/no surge capacity in the system, de-unionization of the economy without replacing the labour standards unions brought about through employment standards legislation; etc etc.

What needs to happen (in due course, not this moment) is a sharp rise on taxes on business and the upper-middle and high-income earners in order to rebuild and enhance social supports and robust public services; as well as substantial improvement in employment standards.
 
Northern Light said:
While you may well be right; its worth saying Austerity/neo-liberal nonsense has at least partly exacerbated this situation, not just here in Ontario, but globally.

Too few hospital beds/no surge capacity in the system, de-unionization of the economy without replacing the labour standards unions brought about through employment standards legislation; etc etc.

What needs to happen (in due course, not this moment) is a sharp rise on taxes on business and the upper-middle and high-income earners in order to rebuild and enhance social supports and robust public services; as well as substantial improvement in employment standards.
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Some of our politicians are in the wait-until-someone-dies-then-react mode.
 
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