Toronto Ontario Line 3 | ?m | ?s

Report says the OL should be supported... in principle.

Report then goes on to explain how critical it is for the OL to reach a capacity of 35k pphpd. What happens is it doesn’t?
 
So the City gets:
- Subway upload off the table
- Reimbursement of some money spent to date
- No municipal contribution required for Ontario line, Scarborough Subway, other projects.

In return for supporting $3.2 billion in federal money redirected to the Ontario Line.
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There has to be some catch here - surely??
 
Off the top; I'm very pleased the City as unambiguously as bureaucrats can, called out the province on the nonsense they trotted out some months back.

From the report:

-Since the IBC evaluated the Ontario Line against the Relief Line South, a project with a much narrower scope, it did not make an "apples-to-apples" comparison. Using projects of a more similar scope would have provided more meaningful conclusions on benefits and costs.

-The IBC contained some inaccurate assumptions about design, vehicle technology, operations and delivery that were being considered for the Relief Line South. For example, fully automated operation was being planned and delivery options, including P3, were to be evaluated

-There are many instances where conclusions are reached and/or statements made where no backup documents are provided
 
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Its very clear from the report that the City has no intention of allowing this to go forward in its current form; to the extent it has a choice.

Very clear argument made:

-A train with a capacity of 1100 passengers used by the TTC on Lines 1 and 2 would offer more flexibility to meet increased demand and ensure that the project is fit for purpose further into the future compared to the capacity of 850 passengers being planned for Ontario Line

Also raised as concerns:

That they really want the same vehicle type as Line 2 for interoperability, economies of scale on train and train parts purchase etc etc.

That the OL design may require expansion of the LSE embankment which could create substantial problems including effecting existing city parks/community centres and private property.

That design mitigation is required for any elevated sections, and those costs are not currently budgeted.

*****

BIG note; the report also throws the City's own design at Osgoode under the bus.

Proposes running OL/RL down Simcoe, having interchange at St. Andrew, then west running under either King or Front.

From the report:

Further modifications to the representative alignment could improve public health and environment considerations in the western section, particularly some heritage impacts that were emerging during the preliminary design and engineering work being undertaken for the Relief Line South. If the alignment were to follow Simcoe Street to include an interchange station at St Andrew station, impacts to key cultural heritage resources around Osgoode station (e.g. Osgoode Hall, Campbell House, and 250 University Avenue) could be minimized by avoiding the need to construct a second platform on the Line 1 Osgoode station.

***

The Ontario Line could enhance support of employment growth by considering an alignment following Simcoe and Front Streets, with an interchange station at St. Andrew. Providing a station closer to the Financial District and along the southern edge of the dense employment in the King-Spadina area, this alignment would have an even greater employment concentration of 320,000 existing jobs within 800 metres of stations, projected to grow to over 405,000 by 2041.
 
At the end of the day, the City and its tax payers need this relief line built.

Currently, their are no other relief options nor do we have time to stop the progress on this issue to endless debate "other potential options".

I find it shocking and appalling that City Councillors object to the progress of our city's development, for their own personal political agenda.

Toronto as a City, needs to stop debating petty politics, that strangle the course for our growth.

Just build the Relief Line.

Citizens can not afford to lose another decade of empty promises.
 
Statement from the chair of the TTC


209606
 
Northern Light said:
Its very clear from the report that the City has no intention of allowing this to go forward in its current form; to the extent it has a choice.

Very clear argument made:

-A train with a capacity of 1100 passengers used by the TTC on Lines 1 and 2 would offer more flexibility to meet increased demand and ensure that the project is fit for purpose further into the future compared to the capacity of 850 passengers being planned for Ontario Line

Also raised as concerns:

That they really want the same vehicle type as Line 2 for interoperability, economies of scale on train and train parts purchase etc etc.

That the OL design may require expansion of the LSE embankment which could create substantial problems including effecting existing city parks/community centres and private property.

That design mitigation is required for any elevated sections, and those costs are not currently budgeted.
Click to expand...

A proposal with origins from Michale Schabas that has horrible drawbacks stemming from toy-sized miniature trains? Nope never happened before!

BIG note; the report also throws the City's own design at Osgoode under the bus.

Proposes running OL/RL down Simcoe, having interchange at St. Andrew, then west running under either King or Front.

From the report:

Further modifications to the representative alignment could improve public health and environment considerations in the western section, particularly some heritage impacts that were emerging during the preliminary design and engineering work being undertaken for the Relief Line South. If the alignment were to follow Simcoe Street to include an interchange station at St Andrew station, impacts to key cultural heritage resources around Osgoode station (e.g. Osgoode Hall, Campbell House, and 250 University Avenue) could be minimized by avoiding the need to construct a second platform on the Line 1 Osgoode station.
Click to expand...


Like if the city had just run the line down King Street like their data originally said was for the best? It's always good to see the planners get called out for their crap. They said heritage issues in Riverside were important and to that end to avoid building in the area but they had nothing to say of the 2km block of Queen from University to Bathurst which they heavily restricted and could have been impacted by up to 3 stations.

The Ontario Line could enhance support of employment growth by considering an alignment following Simcoe and Front Streets, with an interchange station at St. Andrew. Providing a station closer to the Financial District and along the southern edge of the dense employment in the King-Spadina area, this alignment would have an even greater employment concentration of 320,000 existing jobs within 800 metres of stations, projected to grow to over 405,000 by 2041.
Click to expand...

Not news! The city has reams of paper showing the dense employment south of Queen Street. The reports said this from the very beginning but the staff were intent on pushing their social justice agenda by ramming stations into Moss Park and proximate to Regent Park. Now we're all stuck trying to corkscrew a line under a maze of tall buildings just to serve the areas that should have been the focus from day 1.

Will the city have the guts to fix another of Keesmat's mistakes? When will sanity prevail?
 
Forgotten said:
A proposal with origins from Michale Schabas that has horrible drawbacks stemming from toy-sized miniature trains? Nope never happened before!



Like if the city had just run the line down King Street like their data originally said was for the best? It's always good to see the planners get called out for their crap. They said heritage issues in Riverside were important and to that end to avoid building in the area but they had nothing to say of the 2km block of Queen from University to Bathurst which they heavily restricted and could have been impacted by up to 3 stations.



Not news! The city has reams of paper showing the dense employment south of Queen Street. The reports said this from the very beginning but the staff were intent on pushing their social justice agenda by ramming stations into Moss Park and proximate to Regent Park. Now we're all stuck trying to corkscrew a line under a maze of tall buildings just to serve the areas that should have been the focus from day 1.

Will the city have the guts to fix another of Keesmat's mistakes? When will sanity prevail?
Click to expand...

Seriously. Put the damn line under King St. It's the greatest passenger and trip generator when you include the numerous employment nodes. Social justice agenda is also augmented by fears King is too close to the rail corridor as well as overcrowding issues. PATH mitigates that and the reality is if you're trying to get into the core or eastern/western areas of the core, GO transit isn't the best method when compared to a brand new subway line that takes you directly there.
 
Northern Light said:
Its very clear from the report that the City has no intention of allowing this to go forward in its current form; to the extent it has a choice.

Very clear argument made:

-A train with a capacity of 1100 passengers used by the TTC on Lines 1 and 2 would offer more flexibility to meet increased demand and ensure that the project is fit for purpose further into the future compared to the capacity of 850 passengers being planned for Ontario Line

Also raised as concerns:

That they really want the same vehicle type as Line 2 for interoperability, economies of scale on train and train parts purchase etc etc.

That the OL design may require expansion of the LSE embankment which could create substantial problems including effecting existing city parks/community centres and private property.

That design mitigation is required for any elevated sections, and those costs are not currently budgeted.

*****

BIG note; the report also throws the City's own design at Osgoode under the bus.

Proposes running OL/RL down Simcoe, having interchange at St. Andrew, then west running under either King or Front.

From the report:

Further modifications to the representative alignment could improve public health and environment considerations in the western section, particularly some heritage impacts that were emerging during the preliminary design and engineering work being undertaken for the Relief Line South. If the alignment were to follow Simcoe Street to include an interchange station at St Andrew station, impacts to key cultural heritage resources around Osgoode station (e.g. Osgoode Hall, Campbell House, and 250 University Avenue) could be minimized by avoiding the need to construct a second platform on the Line 1 Osgoode station.

***

The Ontario Line could enhance support of employment growth by considering an alignment following Simcoe and Front Streets, with an interchange station at St. Andrew. Providing a station closer to the Financial District and along the southern edge of the dense employment in the King-Spadina area, this alignment would have an even greater employment concentration of 320,000 existing jobs within 800 metres of stations, projected to grow to over 405,000 by 2041.
Click to expand...

Does this mean the "Ontario Line" will revert back to something much closer to the original RL, using standard TTC subway trains?
 
Did Toronto just win the transit lottery? Has Tory really out-played Ford? Call me a bit impressed, especially with Singh, Sheer and now Trudeau behind it too.

"Under the new cost-sharing arrangement, city staff say, city hall won't be expected to provide any portion of the capital costs of those capital projects. Instead, city transit dollars will be spent on other projects or state of good repair costs."

So we get a commitment to fund Eglinton West to YYZ, the Line 2 extension to STC and the full Ontario Line (Don Mills to Ontario Place) with *no* money from City Hall. AND... our existing subway system doesn’t get uploaded to Metrolinx.
 
I think the Fed Liberals pitching to fund this is a good idea. With Federal dollars in the pot, they have greater push back with respect to design decisions. If the Feds and the City are in agreement, then it will be much harder for the Province to unilaterally push something through. A commitment to funding just gets them a seat at the design table.
 
syn said:
Does this mean the "Ontario Line" will revert back to something much closer to the original RL, using standard TTC subway trains?
Click to expand...

There is nothing in the agreement that is binding on this point one way or the other. But yes, that's the City's angle. There position is clearly 'our idea was better, but if you're paying for it, we're happy to tack on extensions.
 
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