Toronto Ontario Line 3 | ?m | ?s

[TransitBart]

Anyone want to explain why that is? I know nothing about government finances lol

@Northern Light 's response has nothing to do with government finance. Assets are kept on a balance sheet. When a balance sheet is 'in balance' the assets minus the liabilities equal the equity. If you remove an asset, you throw the thing out of balance. In a commercial transaction taking away an asset would be a 'sale'. But since the province doesn't want to pay for this, the point stands. Some liability of the city needs to be extinguished for the city's balance sheet to remain in balance.

 

[sixrings]

The problem is actually that the elected leaders (politicians) won't lead.There are no citizens of any kind putting up obstacles to public transit. Prove what you have just said. The statement you have made is a rant. Not a fact.

Well it is factual that Metrolinx had planned to close the Allen to store construction equipment and be a place where they could empty the dirt. But then local residents who are car drivers... specifically my neighbours of forest hill whose basic mindset was were too rich to ever going to use this line and or we will be dead by the time construction is complete... protested enough that the Allen stayed open. That is a fact and I was at enough meetings to know. I may be too lazy to look it up but someone can find it I'm sure.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

@Northern Light 's response has nothing to do with government finance. Assets are kept on a balance sheet. When a balance sheet is 'in balance' the assets minus the liabilities equal the equity. If you remove an asset, you throw the thing out of balance. In a commercial transaction taking away an asset would be a 'sale'. But since the province doesn't want to pay for this, the point stands. Some liability of the city needs to be extinguished for the city's balance sheet to remain in balance.

Okay, that makes perfect sense. Thanks.

Is it even possible for QP to get around this? This whole subway upload without compensation idea might be totally impossible if what you're saying is painting the whole picture. If that's the case, I'm sure the City's lawyers are smart enough to play hardball with QP.

 

[TransitBart]

Well it is factual that Metrolinx had planned to close the Allen to store construction equipment and be a place where they could empty the dirt. But then local residents who are car drivers... specifically my neighbours of forest hill whose basic mindset was were too rich to ever going to use this line and or we will be dead by the time construction is complete... protested enough that the Allen stayed open. That is a fact and I was at enough meetings to know. I may be too lazy to look it up but someone can find it I'm sure.

Closing a major arterial road is an obtuse proposal by lazy planners at any time. This city is gridlocked and all our neighbors are finding it hard to get around on all modes. No one should have to put up with that. It's a major quality of life issue for all of us.

There is a lot more subway transportation in all our futures and it doesn't matter where anyone lives. If you don't get too distracted by all the static, each person gets one vote. Regardless of which neighbourhood they live in.

 

[Rainforest]

Is it even possible for QP to get around this? This whole subway upload without compensation idea might be totally impossible if what you're saying is painting the whole picture. If that's the case, I'm sure the City's lawyers are smart enough to play hardball with QP.

If they are really eager to upload, they can transfer the equivalent amount of the city's debt to the provincial balance sheet. Probably, that's not a lot of money, as the subways would be costed in nominal dollars based on the prices at the time they were built, not in the inflation-adjusted dollars.

Of course, if I was the provincial government, I wouldn't touch that upload business with a 3-foot pole. [As that makes me responsible for all overcrowding and delays, i.e. problems I can't possibly fix during my current term in the office, even with all best intentions and meaningful investments. The opposition gets a very visible issue to pound on ..]

 

[Rainforest]

Except Vaughan says that the concern is in the Bathurst/King Queen area - not in the Don River area.

The Bathurst/King/Queen area has quite a few multi-storeys, but not real highrises as far as I remember. Still, those buildings have foundations.

Since the line needs to rise up to the surface after crossing Front, the problem might exist in the west end, too.

And eliminate the Carlaw jog. I suspect that added a lot of costs by needlessly making the stations deeper to avoid going parallel and under a major sewer.

No objections.

Tunneling is cheap. keep tunneling to a convenient TBM extraction site - and then just don't build the stations or emergency exits.
Unless of course it's shallow cut-and-cover, in which case you could stop almost anywhere.

Aren't the emergency exits required by the fire code?

 

[Northern Light]

Okay, that makes perfect sense. Thanks.

Is it even possible for QP to get around this? This whole subway upload without compensation idea might be totally impossible if what you're saying is painting the whole picture. If that's the case, I'm sure the City's lawyers are smart enough to play hardball with QP.

The province can legislate its way out of providing compensation........BUT; if the City books deteriorated to a point where they were functionally bankrupt as a result of unacceptable accounting; the municipality is a Creature of the Province.

This means, as practical matter, the province is responsible should the City be unable to pay its debts.

Moreover, the City's credit rating would go in the toilet if its assets could be lifted by provincial whimsy without the debt going with it; that would be a serious credit risk that would impair City borrowing.

 

[Northern Light]

If they are really eager to upload, they can transfer the equivalent amount of the city's debt to the provincial balance sheet. Probably, that's not a lot of money, as the subways would be costed in nominal dollars based on the prices at the time they were built, not in the inflation-adjusted dollars.

True.

Though, normally, if as a business you sold a 'book value' asset whose real value were different in the current time, you would book that at current day value on 'sale' and account for the difference.

This is an important accounting principle in that the province would surely use the asset at contemporary values for net debt calculations and borrowing capacity.

The CRA tends to frown on selling assets at artificially depressed values, and I might argue that it violates the GAAP (Generally Accepted Accounting Principles)

 

[smallspy]

Does this include the areas where the public is actually complaining about noise?

You tell me. You seem to have a better handle on who is complaining, and where.

Dan

 

[rbt]

Aren't the emergency exits required by the fire code?

Absolutely, and based on SSE estimates they seem to be about 50% of the cost of a full blown station.

 

[Cobra]

If I was Tory (too bad he doesn't have the toughness required), these would be my conditions for City Hall support

1. City can toll the Gardiner & DVP or Queen's Park uploads both
2. Longer trains on the Ontario Line to correctly cover future demand
3. Funding to start planning a Northern Ontario Line Extension to the Sheppard Line (Don Mills Station) to shovel ready
4. Funding to start planning a North-Western Ontario Line Extension to the Bloor-Danforth Line (Dundas West Station) to shovel ready

 

[TheTigerMaster]

Experts praise province’s possible subway upload reversal but caution city on backing Ontario Line

Ontario Finance Minister Rod Phillips has acknowledged the province is in talks with the city about a change in its subway upload plans.

t.co

 

[Streety McCarface]

Experts praise province’s possible subway upload reversal but caution city on backing Ontario Line

Ontario Finance Minister Rod Phillips has acknowledged the province is in talks with the city about a change in its subway upload plans.

t.co

Something doesn't seem right, Metrolinx and the provincial government are not telling us something important about the Ontario line. There are dozens of benefits to an upload, why would the province be willing to reverse it if they just want to get the Ontario Line built?

 

[TheTigerMaster]

This whole process is so absurd

 

[TheTigerMaster]

This subway upload proposal is poised to be the biggest and most challenging political proposal for this government to date. I know members of the party caucus, especially those from outside Toronto, must be salivating at the thought of wiping their hands clean of this whole matter.