Toronto Ontario Line 3 | ?m | ?s

[rbt]

Hell will freeze over before 90 second headways are sustainably achieved. Not on this line. Not with this many passengers. Not with trains so small.

If Metrolinx wanted a snowballs chance in hell of achieving those headway’s, they’d need substantially larger trains (larger than the TRs, I’d wager) to decrease dwell times. And even then, they’d certainly fail. High frequency service requires an abundance of excess capacity

If the success of Ontario Line is predicated on these unsustainable headways, well then the whole plan needs to be overhauled

Yes, it will be difficult for the vendor to achieve real-world ridership of that capacity. From the below report it appears achieving high-quality high-frequency service requires running capacity quite a bit beyond what ridership requires. So, a 30kpphpd ridership might required running capacity for 36k; that's tight on small trains.

https://www.wavestone.com/app/uploads/2017/04/driverless-metro-lines-world.pdf

 

[sixrings]

I feel this line is going the way of the Canada line in Vancouver. All the experts said the platforms and trains wouldn't be long enough. All the people just build the damn thing. Then a week after its open its over capacity. But hey let's not learn from others mistakes. Clearly we are geniuses here thinking out of the box. Besides if anyone knows about public transit it must be a Ford.

 

[Steve X]

Hell will freeze over before 90 second headways are sustainably achieved. Not on this line. Not with this many passengers. Not with trains so small.

If Metrolinx wanted a snowballs chance in hell of achieving those headway’s, they’d need substantially larger trains (larger than the TRs, I’d wager) to decrease dwell times. And even then, they’d certainly fail. High frequency service requires an abundance of excess capacity

If the success of Ontario Line is predicated on these unsustainable headways, well then the whole plan needs to be overhauled

Let's hope the private companies they hired have brains to tell ML it can't be done.

Larger trains won't help dwell speed. They eventually get stuffed full and dwell forever. They need more doors on a train and the Spanish solution at major transfering stations.

I feel this line is going the way of the Canada line in Vancouver. All the experts said the platforms and trains wouldn't be long enough. All the people just build the damn thing. Then a week after its open its over capacity. But hey let's not learn from others mistakes. Clearly we are geniuses here thinking out of the box. Besides if anyone knows about public transit it must be a Ford.

At least we don't have local politicians and transit planners claiming no one will ride this line, let's single track the Richmond spur and build it as small as possible. There was a considerable amount of effort to derail the Canada Line at one time.

 

[Allandale25]

I feel this line is going the way of the Canada line in Vancouver. All the experts said the platforms and trains wouldn't be long enough. All the people just build the damn thing. Then a week after its open its over capacity. But hey let's not learn from others mistakes. Clearly we are geniuses here thinking out of the box. Besides if anyone knows about public transit it must be a Ford.

I've certainly read before that a week after the Canada Line opened it was "at capacity". Just out of curiosity, have they been able to do anything to address it?

 

[sixrings]

I've certainly read before that a week after the Canada Line opened it was "at capacity". Just out of curiosity, have they been able to do anything to address it?

I don't think there was anything they could do to address it. The same people here who are arguing that the Ontario line is either genius or acceptable are stressing capacity concerns on Eglinton. But because a pc is making this line and a liberal made Eglinton we are turning a blind eye to the obvious here while casting stones there.

 

[Steve X]

I've certainly read before that a week after the Canada Line opened it was "at capacity". Just out of curiosity, have they been able to do anything to address it?

The recently ordered more trains that are entering service and run at a tighter headway. There wasn't any capacity improvement before this.

First new Canada Line train arrives in Metro Vancouver (VIDEO) | Urbanized

The first new two-car train for the SkyTrain Canada Line made its arrival in Metro Vancouver earlier this week on a cargo ship from South Korea.

dailyhive.com

Of course the Canada line is only carrying 5,500 ppdph right now with a total capacity of 10,000 ppdph with 2 car trains@120 sec headway. A full size 3rd car isn't possible without expensive rebuilding thus 15k ppdph isn't cheaply achievable. The OL won't be anywhere close to this terrible planning.

Opinion: Canada Line is a model example of a poorly-designed, under-built toy train | Urbanized

SkyTrain's Canada Line, turning 10 years old in 2019, epitomizes Metro Vancouver's tendencies of under-building transportation infrastructure.

dailyhive.com

Vancouver would think the OL is super overkilled even with Ford's smaller trains. They must be in heaven with TR capacity.

 

[White Pine]

In the business case, IIRC, it says they are assuming that the trains will be 3x100m, with the TRs being 3.2 m wide.

 

[BMO]

Let's hope the private companies they hired have brains to tell ML it can't be done....

That's not how consulting works lol

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

That's not how consulting works lol

Sadly true. Look at Presto.
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The more I hear about this ontario line the more I don't like it.

 

[Steve X]

That's not how consulting works lol

Unfortunately money wins

 

[TheTigerMaster]

Sadly true. Look at Presto.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

The more I hear about this ontario line the more I don't like it.

It’s a proposal built on lies and bs.

This proposal has so many fatal flaws that if it were subject to a technical competition, it wouldn’t even be deemed worthy of consideration. It doesn’t even adequately achieve its most fundamental goal of decongesting the Yonge Line (unlike the DRL North proposals)

 

[syn]

Hell will freeze over before 90 second headways are sustainably achieved. Not on this line. Not with this many passengers. Not with trains so small.

If Metrolinx wanted a snowballs chance in hell of achieving those headway’s, they’d need substantially larger trains (larger than the TRs, I’d wager) to decrease dwell times. And even then, they’d certainly fail. High frequency service requires an abundance of excess capacity

If the success of Ontario Line is predicated on these unsustainable headways, well then the whole plan needs to be overhauled

Yes, it will be difficult for the vendor to achieve real-world ridership of that capacity. From the below report it appears achieving high-quality high-frequency service requires running capacity quite a bit beyond what ridership requires. So, a 30kpphpd ridership might required running capacity for 36k; that's tight on small trains.

https://www.wavestone.com/app/uploads/2017/04/driverless-metro-lines-world.pdf

Perhaps they need one giant train the length of the whole line. That way there's always a train at every station.

I can't help but feel I'd fit right in at Metrolinx with this uniquely brilliant thinking.

 

[robmausser]

Perhaps they need one giant train the length of the whole line. That way there's always a train at every station.

I can't help but feel I'd fit right in at Metrolinx with this uniquely brilliant thinking.

Its a Paternoster train!

 

[WislaHD]

I can't help but think the reduced scope of Phase 1 of the Relief Line led to this.

It should have been Bathurst to Eglinton from the moment that City Planning took over the planning of this line.

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

I can't help but think the reduced scope of Phase 1 of the Relief Line led to this.

It should have been Bathurst to Eglinton from the moment that City Planning took over the planning of this line.

Is it the cause or the effect? The whole thing felt like a setup.

AoD