Toronto Ontario Line 3 | ?m | ?s

steveintoronto said:
Much farther.
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Much further to Spadina? The proposed tail-tracks to the emergency-exit at John Street get almost half way there way there! Another 300 metres more of tunnel to just past Peter, and you'd could build a 150-metre long Spadina platform .

Compare 300 metres of tunnel to the 8,229 metres being proposed for a single Line 2 station at Scarborough Centre! I'd guess Spadina might have similar ridership too.

I'm concerned that dumping everyone at Queen/University is going to create issues. Surely best to push them at least one station further, to reduce pedestrian traffic at the interchange station (Osgoode).

(okay, I'm being slighly disingenuous to ignore they'd probably want new tail tracks - but the point stands!)
 
nfitz said:
Much further to Spadina? The proposed tail-tracks to the emergency-exit at John Street get almost half way there way there! Another 300 metres more of tunnel to just past Peter, and you'd could build a 150-metre long Spadina platform .

Compare 300 metres of tunnel to the 8,229 metres being proposed for a single Line 2 station at Scarborough Centre! I'd guess Spadina might have similar ridership too.

I'm concerned that dumping everyone at Queen/University is going to create issues. Surely best to push them at least one station further, to reduce pedestrian traffic at the interchange station (Osgoode).

(okay, I'm being slighly disingenuous to ignore they'd probably want new tail tracks - but the point stands!)
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"Much farther" as I detailed prior: (gist of my prior posts) "To the Georgetown Corridor and north to Bramalea as part of RER and to other extant RER tacks the other end".

tstormers said:
From what I had understood. taking a bunch of the Line 2 East end travelers (me) out of using the Yonge/Bloor interchange was what would make the Yonge North a viable option to extend. Therefore making the Yonge/Bloor interchange a smidgen less busy.
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That was inferred, but it might be helpful to exactly quote the original claims and the reports they were based on, those reports btw, highly suspect in terms of what they presumed and why.

I haven't accessed @alexanderglista 's Metrolinx linked doc yet, but my position is to forget about the absurd concept of 'orthodox subway' and go to RER partly in tunnel through downtown and out both ends to *completely* circumvent the subway save for passenger interchange, circumvent some of the loading on Union, and offer riders a *one stop ride to outside of Toronto" on a system paid by their taxes.

If Toronto wants Mickey Mouse subways to serve the 'Pape Entitlement' then Toronto should pay for it themselves. No wonder Toronto has problems. So many Torontonians want everything for less tax than other pay and built by 'others' taxes.

Make this a *Regional System* or go home. There's very little money to be had, unless you want this to go Private Investment, and PI will dictate real trains and a business case, not yesterday's outdated TTC gauge heritage memoirs.

Addendum: I now see the latest glossy comic book cover from Metrolinx. I'm not impressed to be honest. Nice colours though. Just who is kidding whom?

Here's the Metrolinx Rorschach test, to see who can read what they like most into it:
1548969356038.png

It's also fully equipped with trapdoors for weasels to escape unscathed.

It's a Con Game folks! Examine every sentence carefully. They've already written their escape route, using the absolutely guaranteed one: "however, since it is close to 1.0, it is highly sensitive to costs, so more detailed design work and procurement method choice will be of importance to maintain or improve this initial BCR"

Good luck! Toronto has just been written out of the book, again. On the upside, this will be completely on the Province's books post 'upload'. Stay tuned for another exciting adventure, brought to you by: The Desperate Naive Souls of Toronto who don't want to pay the price to get above themselves...

Addendum:
I highly suggest reading Munro's latest blog entry:
[...]
Transit limps along thanks to years of underspending. Tax fighters cling to the idea that even an increase just to cover inflation is excessive, and constantly seek "efficiencies" rather than looking for improvements our city so badly needs. Marquee projects get the political attention, but they vacuum up available dollars while leaving promised new lines years, if not decades, away. Toronto has been running on hot air, and the deep freeze is more than a passing winter storm.

This will not be easy to fix especially when many politicians more than a few kilometres from Queen and Bay regard spending on Toronto as a provincial or national embarrassment, if not another chance to say "fuck off" to the city. If there is a silver lining to that dark cloud, it is the long-overdue recognition that transit needs far better funding than it receives. The backlog of unmet investment simply to keep the lights on and the wheels turning is much larger than transit officials would acknowledge in the past. The risk is that the hole is so deep, the time needed just to show a credible improvement so long, that as a city and region, we will just give up on transit. That would be a disaster. [...]
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Thirteen
 
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steveintoronto said:
If Toronto wants Mickey Mouse subways to serve the 'Pape Entitlement' then Toronto should pay for it themselves. No wonder Toronto has problems. So many Torontonians want everything for less tax than other pay and built by 'others' taxes.
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Very quick to judge. I for one would be happy paying more taxes if it meant that the extra money went to a better subway system and the surface bus/streetcars that serve the city. I believe there are plenty of people in this city that would agree, but mismanagement for decades has made the load of this transit expansion too large for just the city to handle. Plus, it is a GTA system since ridership does also from outside the city limits.

And note sure where "Pape Entitlement' comes into play since the DRL serves way more than the Pape intersection it will start at. Like the Eastern stop, which is at the East Harbour project that projects to have 50,000 jobs when it is complete. That stop also has RER, Smart Track and a streetcar planned for it. Furthermore, the DRL is projected to extend up to Sheppard at some point in the future so the Pape intersection would not be the main terminus leaving the entitlement out of the question along with the West extension being studied to make the full loop to the west of downtown back to Line 2.

I do agree it is a regional system, but then is makes sense for all places to support and be supported. Our whole Province is behind on transit, not just in Toronto.
 
steveintoronto said:
"Much farther" as I detailed prior: (gist of my prior posts) "To the Georgetown Corridor and north to Bramalea as part of RER and to other extant RER tacks the other end".

That was inferred, but it might be helpful to exactly quote the original claims and the reports they were based on, those reports btw, highly suspect in terms of what they presumed and why.

I haven't accessed @alexanderglista 's Metrolinx linked doc yet, but my position is to forget about the absurd concept of 'orthodox subway' and go to RER partly in tunnel through downtown and out both ends to *completely* circumvent the subway save for passenger interchange, circumvent some of the loading on Union, and offer riders a *one stop ride to outside of Toronto" on a system paid by their taxes.

If Toronto wants Mickey Mouse subways to serve the 'Pape Entitlement' then Toronto should pay for it themselves. No wonder Toronto has problems. So many Torontonians want everything for less tax than other pay and built by 'others' taxes.

Make this a *Regional System* or go home. There's very little money to be had, unless you want this to go Private Investment, and PI will dictate real trains and a business case, not yesterday's outdated TTC gauge heritage memoirs.

Addendum: I now see the latest glossy comic book cover from Metrolinx. I'm not impressed to be honest. Nice colours though. Just who is kidding whom?

Here's the Metrolinx Rorschach test, to see who can read what they like most into it:
View attachment 172714
It's also fully equipped with trapdoors for weasels to escape unscathed.

It's a Con Game folks! Examine every sentence carefully. They've already written their escape route, using the absolutely guaranteed one: "however, since it is close to 1.0, it is highly sensitive to costs, so more detailed design work and procurement method choice will be of importance to maintain or improve this initial BCR"

Good luck! Toronto has just been written out of the book, again. On the upside, this will be completely on the Province's books post 'upload'. Stay tuned for another exciting adventure, brought to you by: The Desperate Naive Souls of Toronto who don't want to pay the price to get above themselves...

Addendum:
I highly suggest reading Munro's latest blog entry:

Thirteen
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While I agree that a truly regional system would use standard gauge and allow for interlining with many GO lines, this isn’t want the Relief Line South is mainly about. Would a 4-track standard gauge catenary tunnel through downtown be great? Of course. Would this relief Union Station and bring people from the suburbs closer to their jobs? Definitely. Would this relieve Bloor-Yonge Station? Possibly, but definitely not to the level a Relief Line stopping at Pape Station would.

I understand where your coming from with the idea that subway and TTC gauge is not globally competitive and not a truly regional transportation system. However, we need to keep in mind that the Relief Line being at this stage of planning and design is already unprecedented. So keep this idea readily available so you suggest it to planners and politicians when they want second east-west line in downtown (College Tunnel?).
 
Leo_Chan said:
While I agree that a truly regional system would use standard gauge and allow for interlining with many GO lines, this isn’t want the Relief Line South is mainly about. Would a 4-track standard gauge catenary tunnel through downtown be great? Of course. Would this relief Union Station and bring people from the suburbs closer to their jobs? Definitely. Would this relieve Bloor-Yonge Station? Possibly, but definitely not to the level a Relief Line stopping at Pape Station would.

I understand where your coming from with the idea that subway and TTC gauge is not globally competitive and not a truly regional transportation system. However, we need to keep in mind that the Relief Line being at this stage of planning and design is already unprecedented. So keep this idea readily available so you suggest it to planners and politicians when they want second east-west line in downtown (College Tunnel?).
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You're missing the point. There's nothing to make these competing projects, or even the mainline compatible version more costly. Building the DRL to mainline spec is just a far better way to get the same job done.
 
Leo_Chan said:
this isn’t want the Relief Line South is mainly about.
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I'm sorry to break this to you so bluntly...but it's all just a theory at this point in time. What is it about the hedged language in Metrolinx' own 'Terms of Surrender' that you don't get? If Metrolinx were solidly behind this as most think touted, they'd be publishing detailed written reports, not glossy pics to look at in the toilet. What's valuable is the general routing of whatever will run down there, but it's not going to be a 'TTC Lionel Genuine Toronto Yesterday T Machine'. Nor should it be. Unless Toronto wants to pay for it. How's that coming along?
Leo_Chan said:
However, we need to keep in mind that the Relief Line being at this stage of planning and design is already unprecedented.
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"Unprecedented"? lol...it certainly is, although Munchausen might say it best...
Bureaucromancer said:
Building the DRL to mainline spec is just a far better way to get the same job done.
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The logic just completely goes over their heads!

It's a Toronto thing: "Can't do that, no, we don't do it that way..." While the rest of the Globe moves ahead. I could understand the arrogance if Toronto has some cash of her own. But alas...how's the funding for SmartTrack stations coming along there folks?

As much as I detest this horrendous joke of a regime in QP, like it or not, they have the money, and it's not Toronto's money to spend, as much as Ford is letting them jerk themselves around with the thought that it is.

How's the Rest of Ontario going to react when Ford pays for the Pape Entitlement electric table top train set? It ain't gonna happen folks! When do you get it?

The only way to sell this is by attracting Private Capital Investment, along with Public participation via Infrastructure Banks and grants. And they'll want something more than a legacy extension. It's got to be part of the Future, not the Past, and it's going to have to surpass the present infrastructure and modes being used in Toronto (which are very dated by World City standards) and it's going to have to be a "Part of a Greater Whole". That's how you capture private capital's attention. Who in Hell would want to 'buy in' to the present groaning TTC subway? Scrap Dealers? Turn around specialists? Huawei so they could collect internet traffic?

Now, if anyone has a line on government funds to build the Pape Entitlement, especially after what Metrolinx has just published, please detail. I'm all ears...
 
tstormers said:
Very quick to judge. I for one would be happy paying more taxes if it meant that the extra money went to a better subway system and the surface bus/streetcars that serve the city. I believe there are plenty of people in this city that would agree,
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Not according to polls. I posted one here just a few days back. I voted for more taxes. I'm in a small minority.

You can get upset all you like. Torontonians are unwillingly to pay more to get more. Show polling otherwise, meantime I'll post the Star on-site one and the polling company one as soon as I can find it again.
 
Here's more on the latest Metrolinx Relief report:
[...]
The statement appears to signal a change in Metrolinx’s position on the sequencing of the two politically charged subway projects. Previous reports from the agency suggested the Yonge North Extension could be built without overloading the TTC network, and that both the Yonge project and the relief line should proceed together “in an integrated way.”
TTC officials and other proponents of the Relief Line have long argued it should take priority because it’s desperately needed to relieve crowding on Line 1 (Yonge-University-Spadina), which already regularly operates above capacity.
The Yonge North Extension would push Line 1 to Richmond Hill, and would only add passengers to the Yonge subway.
In an interview Thursday, Markham Mayor Frank Scarpitti, a vocal proponent of the Yonge Extension, called the new Metrolinx report “an about face” and said the agency has “some explaining to do.”
He suggested Metrolinx was kowtowing to the interests of Toronto and its mayor.
“Maybe Metrolinx has become ‘Torontolinx,’ I’m not sure. Maybe Mayor (John) Tory got appointed to the chair of ‘Torontolinx’ overnight,” he said.
Scarpitti asserted the “Yonge subway is not going to take a back seat to any project in the GTA” and called on Premier Doug Ford to publicly confirm the provincial government will proceed with both projects.
[...]
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https://www.thestar.com/news/gta/20...ge-north-subway-extension-says-metrolinx.html

And now the rubber hits the road! It's only absolute logic that *Relief" must happen, but it would also be suicide by Ford's own terms to appear to be catering to the 'Pape Entitlement'.

He's going to be forced to do the logical: Build a Relief Line that relieves everyone, not just the (as his ilk will play it) "the chosen Toronto elites".

But everything Ford is promising comes with strings attached, strings straight to his developer friends, and sure as hell there's going to be a "Private" aspect to this...which I agree with! Just not with him! Anyone but him.

Pray that the Infrastructure Bank makes a proposal so that more rational business minds are driving this, not failed label makers.
 
steveintoronto said:
Make this a *Regional System* or go home. There's very little money to be had, unless you want this to go Private Investment, and PI will dictate real trains and a business case, not yesterday's outdated TTC gauge heritage memoirs.
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Why is it that you feel so strongly that the relief line be a mainline RER-type system? It provides relief to existing subway lines and integrates existing with subway lines. A regional system would be for serving commuters from much farther distances, and it would not serve local travel well. Why build something regional when local needs are not even met? Regional is what GO should handle through the GO Expansion, and with things like the UP Express already in place, bringing the relief line west doesn't seem to make much sense at the present.

Not dismissing what you said at all, just want to hear your thinking behind it.
 
kevhu said:
Why is it that you feel so strongly that the relief line be a mainline RER-type system?
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Compatibility, off the shelf stock, lower cost and later expansion.
kevhu said:
It provides relief to existing subway lines and integrates existing with subway lines.
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So you're back top the same limited system. You unplug one portion, and add load to the rest. What you describe is exactly the problem, not the cure.
kevhu said:
A regional system would be for serving commuters from much farther distances, and it would not serve local travel well.
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It would serve both. Why are you so limiting in your ability to understand how this works so well in many other *world class cities*? This isn't rocket science save for Torontonians not getting it. If you want a dedicated local system then *those users should pay*, not the entire region's for your entitled service. Not every train has to be express, not every express has to be local. It can be both. The secret to that is high performance EMUs, just as RER is touted to be. They can out-accelerate and brake subway trains. Cheaper, lighter, higher thrust to weight ratio and available on short order from many manufacturers.
kevhu said:
Why build something regional when local needs are not even met?
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There will be local stops, and even if there weren't, the answer would be that this is a *RELIEF LINE*! to relieve the present bursting subway system. To *BYPASS IT!* as is done in many leading world class cities (I guess Torontonians love to claim that title, but do absolutely no research into what makes one so)
kevhu said:
Regional is what GO should handle through the GO Expansion, and with things like the UP Express already in place, bringing the relief line west doesn't seem to make much sense at the present.
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And who exactly is this being uploaded to? And the UPX goes to Airport, oddly enough, and as much as I think it should be folded into RER, it isn't and isn't planned to be. Why don't you ask Metrolinx why? The Relief Line could do many proposed projects in one single line. I suggest I don't have to explain the advantage of doing things that way?

Look, it's very simple. If you want the Pape Entitlement to have their own little toy train to serve their beck and call, then they can pay for it. Where's the funding? And if the stations aren't close enough for them, then they can take a bus...like everyone else. And down Pape, not Carlaw, so *they* have to bear the brunt of transit intrusion, the transit they demand.
Meantime this is being uploaded to a regime with very few smarts, save that they realize this has to serve a much greater area and catchment than just Pape, Carlaw, and the few that trickle on from Line 2. Metrolinx are still tripping over themselves trying to justify the ridership for the first leg. It's a no-brainer fer Crisakes, Build it to where it's needed, give people a far faster, roomier ride to downtown from the exurbs, and they'll fill it, from day one.
 
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kevhu said:
A regional system would be for serving commuters from much farther distances, and it would not serve local travel well. Why build something regional when local needs are not even met?
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Just what is it you think is being proposed here? It's EXACTLY THE SAME PROJECT bar the ability of the trains to be through routed onto shared right of ways. Built exactly as in the link and run at >5 minute frequency I suspect the result is actually a lower priced single project that serves all the major demand from both the Relief Line and Yonge Extension (at the cost of limiting branching opportunities). There's no down side to this, lots of potential gains and in even the most conservative version significantly better use of existing corridors north of Eglinton than something built to TTC subway standards.[/QUOTE]
 
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