Toronto Ontario Line 3 | ?m | ?s

Well I'd say a motion goes through that says "City Council approve...", like with 'SmartTrack' and Eglinton West in item 1 of the July meeting I linked to. If not that, a motion directing the start of shovels in the ground.

Hopefully the Relief Line extension to Sheppard will be undergoing significant planning before the 2018 elections. That would be the ideal time for parties and candidates to add it to the platform.
That would be perfect. Tie it to the Eglinton West Extension, and show people "we are building in the suburbs." Would shut critics up.

I think we're more likely to see this:
Phase 1 - Pape to Osgoode
Phase 2 - Pape to Eglinton
Phase 3 - Eglinton to Sheppard
Phase 4 - Osgoode to Dundas West or Dufferin (preferably Dufferin)



They managed to do it around the Leslie & Sheppard intersection. Similar topography.
This schedule seems a little slow imo. I see them trying for Mt Dennis rather then just stopping at Dundas West. That's interesting about about Leslie and Sheppard... was that tunnel bores or cut and cover?
 
I think we're more likely to see this:
Phase 1 - Pape to Osgoode
Phase 2 - Pape to Eglinton
Phase 3 - Eglinton to Sheppard
Phase 4 - Osgoode to Dundas West or Dufferin (preferably Dufferin)

That's a shame. The extension phase that would be most useful to me and most commuters through the West End of downtown gets prioritized last. :(
 
Yeah. The sheppard Don Mills Rd part will be the easiest to tunnel/dig up. Well except the Don Mills/York Mills intersection. I don't know how they'll fit a subway in that area.

There's nothing at Don Mills and York Mills anyway. It'd make more sense for the DRL to divert onto the existing railway just north of the Donway and put a station in that business park between YM and Leslie. That would save a lot of tunnelling money too because it could be outside.

The only issue would be deciding after that to either turn back east and meet up with Don Mills station or just continue on and make Leslie the transfer station. I'd obviously prefer the former but in this hypothetical where they follow the railway Leslie would be a lot easier/cheaper.
 
This schedule seems a little slow imo. I see them trying for Mt Dennis rather then just stopping at Dundas West. That's interesting about about Leslie and Sheppard... was that tunnel bores or cut and cover?

Honestly, I don't think it will reach Mt Dennis. There isn't any room in the rail corridor, and putting a subway next to one of the biggest GO trunks in the region would be an unnecessary duplication of service. This is why I suggest going up Dufferin instead.

And there's actually a bridge there. If you look at the SE corner of the intersection, you can see a covered bridge appear from one bank and disappear into the other.

That's a shame. The extension phase that would be most useful to me and most commuters through the West End of downtown gets prioritized last. :(

Well to be fair, most western commuters (at least north of Bloor) already have their Relief Line. It's called the Spadina Subway. For south of Bloor, the idea is that the King ROW can carry some of the load, if done properly.
 
There's nothing at Don Mills and York Mills anyway. It'd make more sense for the DRL to divert onto the existing railway just north of the Donway and put a station in that business park between YM and Leslie. That would save a lot of tunnelling money too because it could be outside.

The only issue would be deciding after that to either turn back east and meet up with Don Mills station or just continue on and make Leslie the transfer station. I'd obviously prefer the former but in this hypothetical where they follow the railway Leslie would be a lot easier/cheaper.
York Mills and Leslie sounds nice, but going back to Don Mills, you have to cross under the 401. How will that be done?
Honestly, I don't think it will reach Mt Dennis. There isn't any room in the rail corridor, and putting a subway next to one of the biggest GO trunks in the region would be an unnecessary duplication of service. This is why I suggest going up Dufferin instead.

And there's actually a bridge there. If you look at the SE corner of the intersection, you can see a covered bridge appear from one bank and disappear into the other.



Well to be fair, most western commuters (at least north of Bloor) already have their Relief Line. It's called the Spadina Subway. For south of Bloor, the idea is that the King ROW can carry some of the load, if done properly.
It can go up Old Weston/Rogers Road, connect under the crosstown stop. Dufferin would be nice, but would it capture as much ridership? Rogers can cut a lot of time off the commute of those coming croing from the central Etobicoke and western North York area. Then again, we'll see what happens when they open Mt Dennis rail station on the Brampton line.
 
I think we're more likely to see this:
Phase 1 - Pape to Osgoode
Phase 2 - Pape to Eglinton
Phase 3 - Eglinton to Sheppard
Phase 4 - Osgoode to Dundas West or Dufferin (preferably Dufferin)



They managed to do it around the Leslie & Sheppard intersection. Similar topography.
But if Dufferin, when it hits eglinton, will be going to Mount Dennis (Weston Rd) so would make more sense to hit Keele St or Dundas St West (UPX)
 
There are 2 main advantages of building DRL as part of RER {catenary} as opposed to standard subway third rail.

First it can be expanded very quickly. The core are {Eg to LV} would cost about the same but any further expansions would be very cheap and non-existent for trains heading West to Burlington as that section of RER will long since been completed. A northern extension just means the trains will continue heading North on the existing track. Third rail would mean any further expansions would require all new track and all new stations............a King's ransom and a huge amount of time to build but for no further increase in capacity or frequency. A catenary line using current/future RER could have 120 meter stations running every 2 minutes bringing it to any subway capacity. That frequency wouldn't be needed in York or Burlington but as I said they could have, for example, every other train short-turn at Oakville & Don Mills.

Second, Metrolinx is dangerously putting all it's eggs in one basket by having every single RER line converge at Union. VIA is moving to HFR and with RER going to a minimum of 6,000 trips a week, Union will quickly become too congested with both trains and people. That number will only soar as the RER system increases frequency to meet demand and other inevitable line come on stream like Richmond Hill and especially Milton. RER could easily need 15,000 trains/week by 2040. This is made worse by the fact that increasingly more people will need to get beyond 4 blocks of Union creating huge stresses for the already overburdened Yonge Line. How on Earth are all these people and thousands of trains going to be able to negotiate just one station?

This is made MUCH worse by the fact that if there is an accident or emergency at Union, the entire RER. GO commuter, and VIA rail system would come to a screeching halt effectively immobilizing the city. A second downtown tunnel as part of DRL down Queen would offer a much needed secondary route thru the core to avoid such inevitability but also greatly relieve the stresses of the soaring number of both trains and people that Union will see over the decades to come.
 
Here's an idea for consideration:

Route the western leg of the DRL up Lansdowne to the GTR corridor, and the continue north from there. This serves the Parkdale community while utilizing an existing utility corridor. It also avoids decimating the urban fabric of Roncesvalles (another alignment that has been proposed here), and avoids preclusion of a potential Dufferin LRT line.

Thoughts?
 

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Second, Metrolinx is dangerously putting all it's eggs in one basket by having every single RER line converge at Union. VIA is moving to HFR and with RER going to a minimum of 6,000 trips a week, Union will quickly become too congested with both trains and people.

Metrolinx owns the Union Station platform level and every inch of track used by Via from there to Pickering. Take a wild guess who calls the shots on how its used.

Then consider that one of these two government agencies already has a fully funded project with $13.5 billion in hand and shovels in the ground, and the other is still sketching up a concept and trying to assemble a business plan so as to land its first HFR dollar.

Via can't just start wake up one morning and run three times the trains and steal all the available capacity out from under Metrolinx's nose. If HFR becomes a real thing (and I'm reasonably optimistic it will), and threatens Metrolinx's RER plans (and I'm reasonably optimistic it won't), you can be damn sure they'll either make Via pay for additional capacity upgrades or tell them politely that two-thirds of their trains will have to come to a dead stop in Pickering.

That number will only soar as the RER system increases frequency to meet demand and other inevitable line come on stream like Richmond Hill and especially Milton. RER could easily need 15,000 trains/week by 2040.
Um, I'm pretty sure there are a lot of gentlemen in very expensive pinstriped suits at CN and CP headquarters that don't think its "inevitable" that RER will come to the Milton and Richmond Hill lines. There's the small matter of multiple billions of dollars of further investment that would need to be closed first.

But fine, let's assume we wave a magic wand and get the same kind of train volumes the future Barrie line will have on two more GO lines. That presumably grows the future GO scenario from 6000 train trips a week to the ballpark of, what, 7,500 trips a week?

Now you're saying RER will "easily" get to 15,000 trains/week 15 years after launch? That's another doubling of train frequencies on all seven lines. That's another couple of billion dollars worth of expansion. What, pray tell, convinces you that there is "easily" demand for so much service and that it would be both economic and inevitable for us to get there?

This is made worse by the fact that increasingly more people will need to get beyond 4 blocks of Union creating huge stresses for the already overburdened Yonge Line.
So let me see if I follow here. In order to bring people to destinations further than 4 blocks from Union, we need to bring them to an interchange station 4 blocks from Union, so they can go to places further than there on the very same Yonge Line? (And counterpeak on it in either scenario.)

How on Earth are all these people and thousands of trains going to be able to negotiate just one station?
Assuming they pop into existence? Ask the Japanese. Nicely.

This is made MUCH worse by the fact that if there is an accident or emergency at Union, the entire RER. GO commuter, and VIA rail system would come to a screeching halt effectively immobilizing the city.
Shh. You might scare these guys, who spent decades longing for a Union Station that would bring together all their S-bahn, region and intercity trains into a single station, but were blocked by pesky politics. So as soon as they got the chance, they spent billions creating one. But they don't know anything about passenger rail.

A second downtown tunnel as part of DRL down Queen would offer a much needed secondary route thru the core to avoid such inevitability but also greatly relieve the stresses of the soaring number of both trains and people that Union will see over the decades to come.
I actually think a blended RER/local tube under Queen is a pretty cool idea. But you're really, really abusing the word "inevitability".
 
I think this is more like catching each other's glance from across the crowded street, at this point.

Heh, sounds like a James Blunt song. "She smiled at me on the subway..."

There are 2 main advantages of building DRL as part of RER {catenary} as opposed to standard subway third rail.

First it can be expanded very quickly. The core are {Eg to LV} would cost about the same but any further expansions would be very cheap and non-existent for trains heading West to Burlington as that section of RER will long since been completed. A northern extension just means the trains will continue heading North on the existing track. Third rail would mean any further expansions would require all new track and all new stations............a King's ransom and a huge amount of time to build but for no further increase in capacity or frequency. A catenary line using current/future RER could have 120 meter stations running every 2 minutes bringing it to any subway capacity. That frequency wouldn't be needed in York or Burlington but as I said they could have, for example, every other train short-turn at Oakville & Don Mills.

Second, Metrolinx is dangerously putting all it's eggs in one basket by having every single RER line converge at Union. VIA is moving to HFR and with RER going to a minimum of 6,000 trips a week, Union will quickly become too congested with both trains and people. That number will only soar as the RER system increases frequency to meet demand and other inevitable line come on stream like Richmond Hill and especially Milton. RER could easily need 15,000 trains/week by 2040. This is made worse by the fact that increasingly more people will need to get beyond 4 blocks of Union creating huge stresses for the already overburdened Yonge Line. How on Earth are all these people and thousands of trains going to be able to negotiate just one station?

This is made MUCH worse by the fact that if there is an accident or emergency at Union, the entire RER. GO commuter, and VIA rail system would come to a screeching halt effectively immobilizing the city. A second downtown tunnel as part of DRL down Queen would offer a much needed secondary route thru the core to avoid such inevitability but also greatly relieve the stresses of the soaring number of both trains and people that Union will see over the decades to come.

There are bigger differences between the rolling stock of subway/metro and mainline rail than a simple catenary. But in any case there is a lot of merit in upgrading one or two GO corridors to even higher standard than what's proposed with RER, not to mention bypassing Union/USRC by way of some kind of tunnel. If such a thing were to ever happen to though I think it's most logical to put the investment into LSE+LSW. It's the busiest, and will always remain that way by its nature. This is one of the things that's confusing about SmrtTrack...why should Stouffville be upgraded to RER+ when other corridors should, and were once planned to, receive such treatment.

It can go up Old Weston/Rogers Road, connect under the crosstown stop. Dufferin would be nice, but would it capture as much ridership? Rogers can cut a lot of time off the commute of those coming croing from the central Etobicoke and western North York area. Then again, we'll see what happens when they open Mt Dennis rail station on the Brampton line.

Agreed. If using Dufferin it pretty much precludes a northern expansion. There aren't really any corridors where the line can veer NW optimally, and it makes very little sense to extend a line so close to Line 1. This is one reason why I like the idea of bringing the line further west (Keele, Dundas West, etc). Keeps a good spacing, captures a larger area, there are roads and rail lines to follow to expand to undeserved areas.
 
Heh, sounds like a James Blunt song. "She smiled at me on the subway..."



There are bigger differences between the rolling stock of subway/metro and mainline rail than a simple catenary. But in any case there is a lot of merit in upgrading one or two GO corridors to even higher standard than what's proposed with RER, not to mention bypassing Union/USRC by way of some kind of tunnel. If such a thing were to ever happen to though I think it's most logical to put the investment into LSE+LSW. It's the busiest, and will always remain that way by its nature. This is one of the things that's confusing about SmrtTrack...why should Stouffville be upgraded to RER+ when other corridors should, and were once planned to, receive such treatment.



Agreed. If using Dufferin it pretty much precludes a northern expansion. There aren't really any corridors where the line can veer NW optimally, and it makes very little sense to extend a line so close to Line 1. This is one reason why I like the idea of bringing the line further west (Keele, Dundas West, etc). Keeps a good spacing, captures a larger area, there are roads and rail lines to follow to expand to undeserved areas.
Yup. I think Dufferin leads to Yorkdale. with Mt Dennis, there's many option with which you can take the line.
 
This may have been answered somewhere in the previous 509 pages of this thread, so forgive me, but have we seen definitively in any of the planning or consultation docs what the expected provision will be for turning around the trains at either end of the line (if you assume, for argument's sake, it's Osgoode to Danforth for starters)? Are they just going to loop them?
 
Yeah. The sheppard Don Mills Rd part will be the easiest to tunnel/dig up. Well except the Don Mills/York Mills intersection. I don't know how they'll fit a subway in that area.
Maybe when the DRL crosses the Don River at Millwood, it should stay elevated to Seneca College.

That's about 14km. The difference between $400M/km for underground vs. $125M/km for elevated amounts to $3.5B.
This is likely the option of choosing between extension to Eglinton, or extension to Finch+.

Similar thing happened in the West end. If the Spadina line would not have been built in the median of Allen, it would likely still be terminated at Eglinton today.
 
This may have been answered somewhere in the previous 509 pages of this thread, so forgive me, but have we seen definitively in any of the planning or consultation docs what the expected provision will be for turning around the trains at either end of the line (if you assume, for argument's sake, it's Osgoode to Danforth for starters)? Are they just going to loop them?

I suspect I may be misunderstand your question

What do you mean by "loop"? Do you mean in the same way as streetcars? If so, we can say for certain they'll be no loop. Trains will turn around by switching tracks like they do elsewhere at terminal stations on the system.
 

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