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Ontario Line (was Relief Line South, in Design)

officedweller

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I guess you mean for people who work around South Core?
Probably no different than all the people who get off GO trains at Union and walk 10 minutes to the towers at King & Bay through PATH. I suppose, however, that may set up a counterflow in the PATH (like salmon swimming upstream).
I suppose they could catch the streetcar at Spadina down to Queen's Quay.
 

smallspy

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I mean walk 10 minutes from king street (where the Ontario line stops will be) to Union. The rest of your post, I agree. And it's sad.
Because there are a lot of people who work downtown and take the GO train into Union who aren't a 10 minute walk away from the station.

I can't seem to find the numbers right now, but there's a very substantial portion of commuters (or at least, there were prior to March) who get off of the GO train and take a subway north to their destination - but from memory it's approaching 20% of GO's ridership into and out of Union. If they can offload those passengers from the GO system away from Union, that would go a long way towards helping limit the impending crush.

Dan
 

Streety McCarface

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Because there are a lot of people who work downtown and take the GO train into Union who aren't a 10 minute walk away from the station.

I can't seem to find the numbers right now, but there's a very substantial portion of commuters (or at least, there were prior to March) who get off of the GO train and take a subway north to their destination - but from memory it's approaching 20% of GO's ridership into and out of Union. If they can offload those passengers from the GO system away from Union, that would go a long way towards helping limit the impending crush.

Dan
But if the goal of most of these people is to go North, then why would they pick the Ontario line? At Union you connect to both the Yonge Line and the University-Spadina line, without having to transfer twice. If the Ontario line went to Sheppard it'd be a different story, but it's not. If people are going north, a better option would be the increased utilization of the Barrie and Richmond Hill lines, with more stops and better frequencies/connections.

The Ontario line only seems to benefit users if they're going to a location along Queen street or to Corktown. Transferring at Exhibition or East harbor is going to suck a lot more than Union given the lack of amenities and space. This would be especially true for people going to Hamilton, Kitchener, Barrie, or along the Milton/Richmond Hill lines, where wait times can exceed 30 minutes. If you're going down King, there is some benefit to this arrangement, but it's not particularly more beneficial than the current arrangement or the RL arrangement.
 

TheTigerMaster

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Because there are a lot of people who work downtown and take the GO train into Union who aren't a 10 minute walk away from the station.

I can't seem to find the numbers right now, but there's a very substantial portion of commuters (or at least, there were prior to March) who get off of the GO train and take a subway north to their destination - but from memory it's approaching 20% of GO's ridership into and out of Union. If they can offload those passengers from the GO system away from Union, that would go a long way towards helping limit the impending crush.

Dan
But if the goal of most of these people is to go North, then why would they pick the Ontario line? At Union you connect to both the Yonge Line and the University-Spadina line, without having to transfer twice. If the Ontario line went to Sheppard it'd be a different story, but it's not. If people are going north, a better option would be the increased utilization of the Barrie and Richmond Hill lines, with more stops and better frequencies/connections.

The Ontario line only seems to benefit users if they're going to a location along Queen street or to Corktown. Transferring at Exhibition or East harbor is going to suck a lot more than Union given the lack of amenities and space. This would be especially true for people going to Hamilton, Kitchener, Barrie, or along the Milton/Richmond Hill lines, where wait times can exceed 30 minutes. If you're going down King, there is some benefit to this arrangement, but it's not particularly more beneficial than the current arrangement or the RL arrangement.
All good points. I'll also add that, from the east, the limited capacity of the Ontario Line limits whatever potential (if any) it has to relieve congestion on the GO lines coming from the east side of the city. Why leave a crowded Lakeshore East train to attempt to pack onto a crowded Ontario Line train that might be too full to even fit you? Further, extending the Ontario Line north to Sheppard would render moot this GO relief exercise, as the line would overcapacity south of Bloor
 

smallspy

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But if the goal of most of these people is to go North, then why would they pick the Ontario line? At Union you connect to both the Yonge Line and the University-Spadina line, without having to transfer twice. If the Ontario line went to Sheppard it'd be a different story, but it's not. If people are going north, a better option would be the increased utilization of the Barrie and Richmond Hill lines, with more stops and better frequencies/connections.
Because they're only going as far as Bloor in almost all cases, and most no further than Dundas. A line intercepting the GO lines and running under Queen would likely capture a very good quantity of those commuters, as they could then walk from Queen to their destination.

Sure, those that are traveling further north aren't going to make use of the Ontario Line, but they're such a small proportion that it would be churlish to try and cater only to them with the line.

The Ontario line only seems to benefit users if they're going to a location along Queen street or to Corktown.
Yes - that's the point.

Transferring at Exhibition or East harbor is going to suck a lot more than Union given the lack of amenities and space.
I'm not sure how you could come to this conclusion considering that there are simply no designs to make assumptions about.

This would be especially true for people going to Hamilton, Kitchener, Barrie, or along the Milton/Richmond Hill lines, where wait times can exceed 30 minutes. If you're going down King, there is some benefit to this arrangement, but it's not particularly more beneficial than the current arrangement or the RL arrangement.
You're making a lot of assumptions here on things that either won't hold true if the plans continue to unfold, or on things that frankly none of us know about yet.

All good points. I'll also add that, from the east, the limited capacity of the Ontario Line limits whatever potential (if any) it has to relieve congestion on the GO lines coming from the east side of the city. Why leave a crowded Lakeshore East train to attempt to pack onto a crowded Ontario Line train that might be too full to even fit you? Further, extending the Ontario Line north to Sheppard would render moot this GO relief exercise, as the line would overcapacity south of Bloor
Well, this is the $64K question, isn't it? If somehow the line does everything that it promises, than capacity won't be an issue for quite a long time. But what if it doesn't?

Dan
 

innsertnamehere

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Looking at East Harbour, the transfer is going to be seamless based on the description provided so far.

When taking a GO Train downtown in the morning from the Stouffville or Lakeshore East lines, you will get off and literally cross the platform to the westbound Ontario Line platform. It will take literally a matter of seconds, especially if the Ontario Line is running at 90 second frequencies.

In the evening reverse it.

Transfers will be a bit different and longer if you want to do something else, like go north on the Ontario line, but for most people it will be seamless.

If you work in the north end of the financial district, basically anywhere north of King St, making this transfer will likely be faster and more comfortable than walking from Union Station.

Not sure on the design of Exhibition, but hopefully it's similarly very easy to make the transfer.
 

W. K. Lis

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Because they're only going as far as Bloor in almost all cases, and most no further than Dundas. A line intercepting the GO lines and running under Queen would likely capture a very good quantity of those commuters, as they could then walk from Queen to their destination.

Sure, those that are traveling further north aren't going to make use of the Ontario Line, but they're such a small proportion that it would be churlish to try and cater only to them with the line.



Yes - that's the point.



I'm not sure how you could come to this conclusion considering that there are simply no designs to make assumptions about.



You're making a lot of assumptions here on things that either won't hold true if the plans continue to unfold, or on things that frankly none of us know about yet.



Well, this is the $64K question, isn't it? If somehow the line does everything that it promises, than capacity won't be an issue for quite a long time. But what if it doesn't?

Dan
I can see an increase of ridership going north to the Ontario Science Centre.
 

Haydenpoon

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Not sure on the design of Exhibition, but hopefully it's similarly very easy to make the transfer.
Based on my conversation with staff at Metrolinx during an Ontario line open house, the line will probably be as follow:

Westbound OL arrives next to westbound GO,
Westbound OL dip underground
Reverse direction
Eastbound OL raise above ground, arrive next to eastbound GO

Again, everything is subjected to changes.
 

Allandale25

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W. K. Lis

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Latest post.

Too bad the "experts" at Metrolinx aren't asking the "experts" at the TTC. But then the TTC doesn't know much about building rapid transit lines. Oh, wait a minute...

The current Ontario government still thinks that development by the private sector is the best way to go. Using long-term care as their example, we can.... oh, dear. We're in trouble.
 

cplchanb

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Too bad the "experts" at Metrolinx aren't asking the "experts" at the TTC. But then the TTC doesn't know much about building rapid transit lines. Oh, wait a minute...

The current Ontario government still thinks that development by the private sector is the best way to go. Using long-term care as their example, we can.... oh, dear. We're in trouble.
The developers arent the ones to blame on LTC. They just develop the land into the facilities. Its the ones who own and operate it that are responsible for this mess.

TTC really can take a page as well from the rest of the world. They continually advocate the message that tunneling is the best way to do things here and their stations must be gigantic mausolems (a la hwy 407 stn). Not to mention the management of their spadina extension is borderline criminal in terms of negligence and incompetence
 

asher__jo

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Citing Vancouver and Chicago as successful examples of elevated rail annoys me. I'd say the reason it generally works in Vancouver is that it goes through industrial areas or commercial area's (with density at stations). So that may or may not apply to Toronto in certain areas.
 

Rainforest

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Looking at East Harbour, the transfer is going to be seamless based on the description provided so far.

When taking a GO Train downtown in the morning from the Stouffville or Lakeshore East lines, you will get off and literally cross the platform to the westbound Ontario Line platform. It will take literally a matter of seconds, especially if the Ontario Line is running at 90 second frequencies.

In the evening reverse it.
There are a few concerns here. In the morning: people can stand during their short 3-5 min ride on the OL train after transferring at East Harbor, as long as the OL train has standing room. But what if it is packed to the brim already? If so, then many GO riders are better off staying on their train till Union, and then just walking to their downtown destination.

Things get even more interesting in the evening. Boarding an eastbound LS train at East Harbor, you will have much less chance of getting a seat than boarding the same train at Union. Is it worth using OL to make the first 5 min of your commute slightly more comfortable, but lose the chance to sit for the next 40 min or 60 min? Maybe some riders will do a bit of reverse for that reason: boarding eastbound LS trains at Exhibition, or westbound LS trains at East Harbor, and riding through Union in both cases. But then, they can't use same-platform transfer from OL to GO, because their OL train and their GO train will be going in the opposite directions.
 
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MisterF

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Too bad the "experts" at Metrolinx aren't asking the "experts" at the TTC. But then the TTC doesn't know much about building rapid transit lines. Oh, wait a minute...

The current Ontario government still thinks that development by the private sector is the best way to go. Using long-term care as their example, we can.... oh, dear. We're in trouble.
Well consider that the TTC's rapid transit playbook seems to consist of:
  • underground subways in the suburbs
  • streetcars in the middle of the road that stop at red lights
  • nothing else
Seems to me that "the TTC doesn't know much about building rapid transit lines" is a pretty reasonable conclusion to come to. They're completely blind to the countless other solutions they could be using to build cheap and effective rapid transit.

Citing Vancouver and Chicago as successful examples of elevated rail annoys me. I'd say the reason it generally works in Vancouver is that it goes through industrial areas or commercial area's (with density at stations). So that may or may not apply to Toronto in certain areas.
I see your point about Chicago since most of its elevated lines don't look anything like a modern elevated rapid transit line. Vancouver, on the other hand, is perfectly relevant. While the Skytrain tends to be underground in older urban areas, they do have elevated lines in areas with dense mixed use development and street-oriented retail. That's basically Vancouver's equivalent to downtown Vaughan or Scarborough, but with transit built above ground. And that pragmatic way of developing is exactly why the Skytrain is a longer system than Toronto's subway.
 

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