News   Jul 10, 2020
 40     0 
News   Jul 10, 2020
 222     0 
News   Jul 10, 2020
 460     1 

Ontario Line (was Relief Line South, in Design)

north-of-anything

Active Member
Member Bio
Joined
Dec 21, 2018
Messages
242
Reaction score
291
Location
Bradford
I think a Don Mills alignment would work best, just to allow for Victoria Park and/or Warden routes in the future, and also because of the underlooked ridership potential between Steeles and Finch. Seriously, a Seneca College station would be amazing for encouraging counter-peak travel.
 

GenerationW

Senior Member
Member Bio
Joined
Jun 3, 2009
Messages
2,480
Reaction score
66
The COVID crisis could be a huge turning point for telecommuting. Could a spike in working from home post-COVID reduce the crowding of Lines 1 and 2, easing the urgency of the OL?
On another forum I frequent, someone went even further and said this will result in the end of huge transit projects.

I'm placing my bets on yonge north being chopped
That would make the most sense, but I think York Region now has too much political influence for that to happen. They got Spadina extended beyond Steeles despite Toronto's opposition, and surprised everyone by getting Yonge North on the agenda. It's pretty obvious what's going to happen if/when the Relief Line and Bloor-Danforth get close to York Region.

.
Whether he stayed on or not, I find it hard to believe Miller would see Transit City as the end of transit expansion in Toronto.

I agree that the DRL should've been the first priority. It should've been the first priority many decades ago.

The DRL was part of the city's transit plans and was scheduled to be finished by 2030 as part of the province's regional transit plan in 2007.

The 7-stop Scarborough LRT was included in the first wave of projects. It was already planned and funded. When Ford cancelled Transit City they'd already spent tens of millions on it.

Transit City would've delivered major transit improvements to priority neighbourhoods. If they'd gone ahead, we'd no longer have to worry about the Scarborough Subway, for example, as they'd already have a new LRT line up and running. We could move on to other priorities, like the DRL (and possibly re-evaluating projects like the Don Mills LRT, which was slated to being construction in 2020).

Instead, we've been spinning our wheels since Miller left office.
I meant the end of transit expansion as far as Miller's role as mayor, not until the end of time.

Miller submitted Sheppard and Eglinton first for EAs and made sure they were the first lines scheduled to begin construction, 2009 and 2011 respectively. Scarborough's EA was still in progress when Rob won and was scheduled to begin construction in 2015. Miller could have put Scarborough first, but he was obsessed with building something on Eglinton because of what Mike Harris did in 1995, and cutting off subway expansion because Miller's hated rival Mel Lastman championed the Sheppard subway. Transit revenge trumped transit planning. Ironically, Mel was originally opposed to Sheppard. He was also the first Toronto politician in the 1980s to revive the DRL concept, and came to support Sheppard because downtown councillors, dominated by the NDP, rejected the DRL time and again from 1985 right through the 90s. So it was only natural that Miller would adopt the same negative stance towards the DRL over his seven years as mayor.

After Network 2011 essentially died in the 90s, the DRL wasn't officially prioritized by the city until council took away Rob Ford's powers in 2012. The DRL on a 25 or 15-year provincial plan is nice on paper, but meaningless if the mayor (or local councillors in the case of Lastman) has no interest in it. Go figure that political opposites Miller and Ford saw eye-to-eye on what would be the city's most transformative transit project since the original Yonge subway. Turns out planning transit out of spite isn't much better than Rob Ford planning transit out of a drunken stupor.

King was too narrow for the station boxes, that is why they choose Queen.
Is Queen really that much wider?

The cynic in me says they chose Queen so that City Hall would get its own stop.

Welcome back, it's been a while :).
Thanks!
 

syn

Senior Member
Member Bio
Joined
Apr 26, 2007
Messages
4,399
Reaction score
1,944
I meant the end of transit expansion as far as Miller's role as mayor, not until the end of time.

Miller submitted Sheppard and Eglinton first for EAs and made sure they were the first lines scheduled to begin construction, 2009 and 2011 respectively. Scarborough's EA was still in progress when Rob won and was scheduled to begin construction in 2015. Miller could have put Scarborough first, but he was obsessed with building something on Eglinton because of what Mike Harris did in 1995, and cutting off subway expansion because Miller's hated rival Mel Lastman championed the Sheppard subway. Transit revenge trumped transit planning. Ironically, Mel was originally opposed to Sheppard. He was also the first Toronto politician in the 1980s to revive the DRL concept, and came to support Sheppard because downtown councillors, dominated by the NDP, rejected the DRL time and again from 1985 right through the 90s. So it was only natural that Miller would adopt the same negative stance towards the DRL over his seven years as mayor.

After Network 2011 essentially died in the 90s, the DRL wasn't officially prioritized by the city until council took away Rob Ford's powers in 2012. The DRL on a 25 or 15-year provincial plan is nice on paper, but meaningless if the mayor (or local councillors in the case of Lastman) has no interest in it. Go figure that political opposites Miller and Ford saw eye-to-eye on what would be the city's most transformative transit project since the original Yonge subway. Turns out planning transit out of spite isn't much better than Rob Ford planning transit out of a drunken stupor.
An interesting take.

Miller was only elected as councilor in 1994, so it seems unlikely he wanted to build the Eglinton LRT out of revenge lol. It made sense as it was the 'spine' of the expansion, spanning most of the city. The Sheppard East extension provided plenty of coverage in Scarborough.

The Scarborough LRT was scheduled to begin construction in 2012 for completion in 2016 but was pushed back to 2015 after the province delayed funding. No conspiracy there.

If anything, Scarborough was easily the number one priority in the first slate of projects.
 

The REAL

New Member
Member Bio
Joined
Jun 4, 2019
Messages
11
Reaction score
5
On another forum I frequent, someone went even further and said this will result in the end of huge transit projects.

That would make the most sense, but I think York Region now has too much political influence for that to happen. They got Spadina extended beyond Steeles despite Toronto's opposition, and surprised everyone by getting Yonge North on the agenda. It's pretty obvious what's going to happen if/when the Relief Line and Bloor-Danforth get close to York Region.

.I meant the end of transit expansion as far as Miller's role as mayor, not until the end of time.

Miller submitted Sheppard and Eglinton first for EAs and made sure they were the first lines scheduled to begin construction, 2009 and 2011 respectively. Scarborough's EA was still in progress when Rob won and was scheduled to begin construction in 2015. Miller could have put Scarborough first, but he was obsessed with building something on Eglinton because of what Mike Harris did in 1995, and cutting off subway expansion because Miller's hated rival Mel Lastman championed the Sheppard subway. Transit revenge trumped transit planning. Ironically, Mel was originally opposed to Sheppard. He was also the first Toronto politician in the 1980s to revive the DRL concept, and came to support Sheppard because downtown councillors, dominated by the NDP, rejected the DRL time and again from 1985 right through the 90s. So it was only natural that Miller would adopt the same negative stance towards the DRL over his seven years as mayor.

After Network 2011 essentially died in the 90s, the DRL wasn't officially prioritized by the city until council took away Rob Ford's powers in 2012. The DRL on a 25 or 15-year provincial plan is nice on paper, but meaningless if the mayor (or local councillors in the case of Lastman) has no interest in it. Go figure that political opposites Miller and Ford saw eye-to-eye on what would be the city's most transformative transit project since the original Yonge subway. Turns out planning transit out of spite isn't much better than Rob Ford planning transit out of a drunken stupor.

Is Queen really that much wider?

The cynic in me says they chose Queen so that City Hall would get its own stop.

Thanks!
The original DRL plan on Queen had a City Hall stop.. but it made no sense since the Queen stop on Line 1 is less then 100 meters away.
 

Leo_Chan

Senior Member
Member Bio
Joined
Nov 13, 2016
Messages
3,182
Reaction score
1,895
Location
Richmond Hill
The original DRL plan on Queen had a City Hall stop.. but it made no sense since the Queen stop on Line 1 is less then 100 meters away.
IMO, the Relief Line South plan was took the worst possible of the 4 realistic options for the City Hall stations.
1. 2 interchange stations centre aligned + +
2. 2 interchange stations outer aligned --| |--
3. 2 interchange stations inner aligned |-- --|
4. 1 interchange station at Bay | -- |
The option chosen gave little improvement to underground access and was skewed to improve the lives of those at City Hall by letting them have two stations. The outer alignment would have expanded underground access west of University and east of Yonge. The center alignment would have been best for fast transfers. And the single interchange station would have saved money.
 

canarob

Senior Member
Member Bio
Joined
Apr 24, 2007
Messages
1,355
Reaction score
338
Location
Markham
That would make the most sense, but I think York Region now has too much political influence for that to happen. They got Spadina extended beyond Steeles despite Toronto's opposition, and surprised everyone by getting Yonge North on the agenda. It's pretty obvious what's going to happen if/when the Relief Line and Bloor-Danforth get close to York Region.
The major issue with extending transit into York Region seems to be about capacity, so if the OL is built in such a way that capacity issues are lessened, then why wouldn't we want to extend the OL into York, especially since it could go straight into the 404/407 employment area (car centric, sure, but last mile buses and other improvements possible) and would provide connections to the Steeles BRT, 407 Transit Way and VIVA Purple? We can't make the 905 less auto dependent without better transit. York Region needs better local bus service first, but I don't see why more subway extensions shouldn't happen in the future. I would agree that a Western extension of the OL and other projects should happen first, but this would hardly be a white elephant.

In the distant future, I could even see Line 2 being extended north from McCowan and Steeles, but that would be decades away. It's certainly not needed now, and would require many zoning changes to make any sense.
 

sche

New Member
Member Bio
Joined
Apr 5, 2019
Messages
42
Reaction score
59
The major issue with extending transit into York Region seems to be about capacity, so if the OL is built in such a way that capacity issues are lessened, then why wouldn't we want to extend the OL into York, especially since it could go straight into the 404/407 employment area (car centric, sure, but last mile buses and other improvements possible) and would provide connections to the Steeles BRT, 407 Transit Way and VIVA Purple? We can't make the 905 less auto dependent without better transit. York Region needs better local bus service first, but I don't see why more subway extensions shouldn't happen in the future. I would agree that a Western extension of the OL and other projects should happen first, but this would hardly be a white elephant.
I usually picture the OL turning east at Finch or Sheppard and then running up the 404 until Steeles, then turning east again and heading north on Warden to end up at Downtown Markham (and probably continuing east to Unionville GO). Pretty much the entire extension would be elevated or at grade and it also hits the employment areas along Steeles and Gordon Baker Rd.
This does have some disadvantages in that a part of it overlaps with the Steeles BRT though
 

north-of-anything

Active Member
Member Bio
Joined
Dec 21, 2018
Messages
242
Reaction score
291
Location
Bradford
I am trying to figure out why anyone is talking about north of Sheppard. Yes, it will go further, but likely not within the next 20 years.
I am trying to figure out what's so special about Sheppard. Line 4 doesn't sound like it's getting extended east any time soon, and Fairview Mall doesn't sound like it's going to be redeveloped at any point soon.

Push it up from Eglinton to Finch. Counter-peak travel to Seneca College will get more people using the line in the counter-peak direction, in a way that Fairview Mall won't.
 

micheal_can

Senior Member
Member Bio
Joined
Dec 24, 2016
Messages
1,906
Reaction score
1,142
I am trying to figure out what's so special about Sheppard. Line 4 doesn't sound like it's getting extended east any time soon, and Fairview Mall doesn't sound like it's going to be redeveloped at any point soon.

Push it up from Eglinton to Finch. Counter-peak travel to Seneca College will get more people using the line in the counter-peak direction, in a way that Fairview Mall won't.
That is just a couple of stations north of Sheppard. That does make sense. However, talking about York Region is more fantasy than much else.
 

north-of-anything

Active Member
Member Bio
Joined
Dec 21, 2018
Messages
242
Reaction score
291
Location
Bradford
That is just a couple of stations north of Sheppard. That does make sense. However, talking about York Region is more fantasy than much else.
Right, it would also be infringing on VIVA territory and potentially reducing their revenue. Extending north to Finch will merely reduce the distance needed for VIVA Green buses to connect to Toronto transit.
 

Top