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Ontario Line (was Relief Line South, in Design)

W. K. Lis

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I agree...

Eglinton West is forsure going to happen to fulfill the crosstown vision and Ford lives along it
Scarborough will lose its SRT so they will need something or else ppl will be pissed
Ontario Line is needed to relieve stress that crosstown and finch west lrt will bring to Yonge in couple years (Maybe the western half to to Ontario Place gets chopped)

Only Yonge Line North seems like it make sense to get cancelled
Not necessarily "cancelled". More likely "postponed". After all, the Eglinton West Subway was "cancelled" in 1995, only to be "reincarnated" as the Eglinton Crosstown LRT, in a couple of years.
 

rbt

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Eglinton West is forsure going to happen to fulfill the cosstown vision and Ford lives along it
It might get tendered. I don't think there's a chance it can make it to financial close by March 2022 though. It's 12 months to qualify bidding teams (required because you pay them about $50M each to place a DBF bid) and 18 months after that to get bids in, evaluate them, and select one; and that's with no distractions.

I think Ontario Line has a chance simply because the next government will likely go with it. The business case isn't terrible.
 

toronto647

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It might get tendered. I don't think there's a chance it can make it to financial close by March 2022 though. It's 12 months to qualify bidding teams (required because you pay them about $50M each to place a DBF bid) and 18 months after that to get bids in, evaluate them, and select one; and that's with no distractions.

I think Ontario Line has a chance simply because the next government will likely go with it. The business case isn't terrible.
Ontario Line to Eglinton will be a must now that the public is aware of it. If they cut the extension to eglinton there will be severe backlash and yonge line will be even more full considering crosstown will have no drl.
 

Steve X

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It might get tendered. I don't think there's a chance it can make it to financial close by March 2022 though. It's 12 months to qualify bidding teams (required because you pay them about $50M each to place a DBF bid) and 18 months after that to get bids in, evaluate them, and select one; and that's with no distractions.

I think Ontario Line has a chance simply because the next government will likely go with it. The business case isn't terrible.
Since Ford has now done the hard part of decoupling the TTC from future subway expansion, going forward with any government would be freely to choose how to built future lines without TTC constraints.

Ontario Line to Eglinton will be a must now that the public is aware of it. If they cut the extension to eglinton there will be severe backlash and yonge line will be even more full considering crosstown will have no drl.
No really. Crosstown and Finch West were announce as full lines and that later cut back to their current status with a much earlier opening dates.
 

syn

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Things could obviously be built after Transit City, but it was definitely meant to be the be-all and end-all of transit construction as far as David Miller was concerned. We're talking about a long-term transit plan. It was already Miller's second term, and it would be unrealistic to think he would have won re-election repeatedly. I'm not convinced he would have defeated Rob in 2010. But let's assume an extended Miller mayoralty...

Adam Giambrone said a DRL would not be considered until Transit City was finished in 2018 (as if that date was realistic!). But who is to say they would support the DRL in alternate universe 2018? After all, it was already rejected once as there was no DRL in Transit City, which still boggles the mind.

There was one occasion when council under Miller had a position on the DRL In response to the province's support for the Yonge extension in January, 2009, Miller agreed to have the city pay for a Yonge Environmental Assessment in exchange for Metrolinx moving the DRL from its 25-year plan to its 15-year plan. That was pretty much the extent of his interest in the DRL. So, presuming Miller stayed on longer as mayor, the notion that other projects would have started concurrent with Transit City is far-fetched.

As for Scarborough having their RT replacement, maybe, but why wasn't the LRT included in the first wave of projects? That should have been a no-brainer. The RT replacement and the DRL were, by far, the city's two highest transit priorities, and Miller addressed neither. If he had, transit would be far less contentious today. Instead, he made political choices prioritizing Sheppard and Eglinton.
Whether he stayed on or not, I find it hard to believe Miller would see Transit City as the end of transit expansion in Toronto.

I agree that the DRL should've been the first priority. It should've been the first priority many decades ago.

The DRL was part of the city's transit plans and was scheduled to be finished by 2030 as part of the province's regional transit plan in 2007.

The 7-stop Scarborough LRT was included in the first wave of projects. It was already planned and funded. When Ford cancelled Transit City they'd already spent tens of millions on it.

Transit City would've delivered major transit improvements to priority neighbourhoods. If they'd gone ahead, we'd no longer have to worry about the Scarborough Subway, for example, as they'd already have a new LRT line up and running. We could move on to other priorities, like the DRL (and possibly re-evaluating projects like the Don Mills LRT, which was slated to being construction in 2020).

Instead, we've been spinning our wheels since Miller left office.
 
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OneCity

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Whether he stayed on or not, I find it hard to believe Miller would see Transit City as the end of transit expansion in Toronto.

I agree that the DRL should've been the first priority. It should've been the first priority many decades ago.

The DRL was part of the city's transit plans and was scheduled to be finished by 2030 as part of the province's regional transit plans in 2007.

The 7-stop Scarborough LRT was included in the first wave of projects. It was already planned and funded. When Ford cancelled Transit City they'd already spent tens of millions on it.

Transit City would've delivered major transit improvements to priority neighbourhoods. If they'd gone ahead, we'd no longer have to worry about the Scarborough Subway, for example, as they'd already have a new LRT line up and running. We could move on to other priorities, like the DRL (and possibly re-evaluating projects like the Don Mills LRT, which was slated to being construction in 2020).

Instead, we've been spinning our wheels since Miller left office.
If the DRL/OL had been prioritized better from the start we wouldn't have seen such extreme geographical political desire to hack in Scarborough Centre or such a poorly detailed plan. The worst of the wheel spinning has actually ended since the toxic City council has been finally removed from carry out further planning.

As for 'priority neighborhoods' in Scarborough the SMLRT was the main line at addressing this concern and was never funded. It has been vastly improved as the EELRT and all these P. areas will also benefit from a better subway connectivity enabling ease of longer commutes and should provide better local economic opportunities with a connected Centre to build in the future. We'll see if the City sees the EELRT thru now that it sits solely in on their table and the levy returned.
 
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Reecemartin

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To the point the Ontario line is superior to RL and RL north planning and that it's lower capacity is a non-issue. Of course RL planning was predicated on using the same rolling stock/gauge as existing TTC subway and hence why using Greenwood made sense. I am not suggesting RL was a flawless plan, but blindly endorsing it's replacement and accepting all of Metrolinx/Ford government's argument that it is superior is troubling. And beyond all that the planning of the Ontario line being planned in secret and unsurped all the consultative work the TTC did is even more troubling.
"Blindly endorsing?" Really? I can appreciate if you don't like the plan but, I don't appreciate the suggesting my support is blind. Feel free to have a full conversation on the topic with me before making a judgement like that thank you very much.

I am not just outright accepting that it is better, I have come to that conclusion myself. The truth is the choice for what we build now was between OL and RLS (if there was a choice at all), yes OL costs more (through less per unit distance) but, the PC's are willing to put the money up for this plan today which they are not for RLS.

When comparing those two plans we get:

More stations with OL, better connections to GO including at both East Harbour and Exhibition which will be very useful with GO RER, cross-platform transfers rather than significant vertical transfers at a number of stations, connectivity North all the way to Eglinton (which is critical especially with ECLRT already open) from day 1, largely the same overall routing for the corridor RLS was covering, IMO better train tech with automated from day 1, sure that's possible on RLS but, afaik was not the plan.

Ofc RLS has some benefits but I see the above as a pretty convincing win for OL.

WRT headways, a number of lines around the world operate in the high 30's / 40 tph, most modern automated systems can and traditional lines upgraded with CBTC can -> look at some of the RER lines, some of the upgraded lines in London, and a ton in Asia also Skytrain does it . . . .

WRT Schabas, I don't particularly think his record is relevant, yeah a lot of his plans were brutal but, on its own merits, I think this plan is good.

WRT lighter rolling stock, I've said it before and I'll say it again we don't need every line to be a full TR subway. Yonge has a lot of density right on it which contributes a large amount to its ridership. In the future, the goal really should be more lines with more moderate capacities. The OL looks to sit at about 85% of the capacity of a traditional Toronto subway route with ATC.

But at least the Relief Line was being planned carefully and thoroughly with the capacity at mind. I would've taken that over a rushed line that will quickly reach capacity.
Not building a line to use TR's does not mean it doesn't have the capacity in mind, based on the OL's specs it may even match the traditional lines with ATC in terms of capacity.

I also would pose the question, if the RLS was being planned so carefully why were measures not taken to go at grade like the OL to reduce the cost and hence make the project an easier sell to the Province? Why was Queen chosen over King despite King quite likely offering better ridership? I've looked through plenty of documentation and particularly the stuff talking about different routes basically just shows different sized circles for different attributes of each route with little in the way of assumptions made or other hard numbers. It all feels very much like ECLRT West ridership studies did . . .
 

asher__jo

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More stations with OL, better connections to GO including at both East Harbour and Exhibition which will be very useful with GO RER, cross-platform transfers rather than significant vertical transfers at a number of stations, connectivity North all the way to Eglinton (which is critical especially with ECLRT already open) from day 1, largely the same overall routing for the corridor RLS was covering, IMO better train tech with automated from day 1, sure that's possible on RLS but, afaik was not the plan.
You're making a ton of assumptions about rolling stock and signalling that weren't fully finalized with RL. Also, saying that RL has fewer stations fails to acknowledge planning for the RL north.
 

Hopkins123

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You're making a ton of assumptions about rolling stock and signalling that weren't fully finalized with RL. Also, saying that RL has fewer stations fails to acknowledge planning for the RL north.
But the RL North proposal itself was flawed too. If going up Don Mills, midblock stations should be incorporated as well (Barber Greene, Bond and Graydon Hall). Lack of stations is a very serious deficit to have considering the once-in-a-generation aspect of building these rapid transit lines.
 

Kitsune

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King was too narrow for the station boxes, that is why they choose Queen. And as to why no above ground portion along the railway ROW? They asked the community and it was a firm no, even when offered a station at Queen.
 

denfromoakvillemilton

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Things could obviously be built after Transit City, but it was definitely meant to be the be-all and end-all of transit construction as far as David Miller was concerned. We're talking about a long-term transit plan. It was already Miller's second term, and it would be unrealistic to think he would have won re-election repeatedly. I'm not convinced he would have defeated Rob in 2010. But let's assume an extended Miller mayoralty...

Adam Giambrone said a DRL would not be considered until Transit City was finished in 2018 (as if that date was realistic!). But who is to say they would support the DRL in alternate universe 2018? After all, it was already rejected once as there was no DRL in Transit City, which still boggles the mind.

There was one occasion when council under Miller had a position on the DRL In response to the province's support for the Yonge extension in January, 2009, Miller agreed to have the city pay for a Yonge Environmental Assessment in exchange for Metrolinx moving the DRL from its 25-year plan to its 15-year plan. That was pretty much the extent of his interest in the DRL. So, presuming Miller stayed on longer as mayor, the notion that other projects would have started concurrent with Transit City is far-fetched.

As for Scarborough having their RT replacement, maybe, but why wasn't the LRT included in the first wave of projects? That should have been a no-brainer. The RT replacement and the DRL were, by far, the city's two highest transit priorities, and Miller addressed neither. If he had, transit would be far less contentious today. Instead, he made political choices prioritizing Sheppard and Eglinton.

-----

As for the current situation, with the Corona crisis it seems likely at least one of Doug's big four (Ontario, Yonge, Scarborough, and EWLRT) will be chopped, or more likely delayed indefinitely. Yonge for me is easily the safest of them all. It has a completed EA, is closest to shovel-ready, and may make Doug more competitive in York Region. Scarborough was Rob's last moment of glory as mayor amid a fog of a gazillion scandals. Can't see Doug pissing on Rob's memory. EWLRT runs through Doug's neighbourhood, and he won't want to risk a future premier building something other than an underground extension. So I'm betting on Ontario. It's the most expensive one by far, needs federal support, and provincial Liberals are apparently lobbying their federal cousins to not fund it unless Ford reverts back to the TTC plan or at least hold off and wait to see if Ford loses in 2022. Not to mention that Doug will likely win zero seats in Ontario Line country.

Coming soon to Yonge: massive crush loads.
Welcome back, it's been a while :).
I agree...

Eglinton West is forsure going to happen to fulfill the crosstown vision and Ford lives along it
Scarborough will lose its SRT so they will need something or else ppl will be pissed
Ontario Line is needed to relieve stress that crosstown and finch west lrt will bring to Yonge in couple years (Maybe the western half to to Ontario Place gets chopped)

Only Yonge Line North seems like it make sense to get cancelled
It might get tendered. I don't think there's a chance it can make it to financial close by March 2022 though. It's 12 months to qualify bidding teams (required because you pay them about $50M each to place a DBF bid) and 18 months after that to get bids in, evaluate them, and select one; and that's with no distractions.

I think Ontario Line has a chance simply because the next government will likely go with it. The business case isn't terrible.
They can promise to use TR rockets on the ontario line. Make it a real subway line. In it's current state, it's more likely to be canceled then Yonge North.

Ontario Line to Eglinton will be a must now that the public is aware of it. If they cut the extension to eglinton there will be severe backlash and yonge line will be even more full considering crosstown will have no drl.
But the RL North proposal itself was flawed too. If going up Don Mills, midblock stations should be incorporated as well (Barber Greene, Bond and Graydon Hall). Lack of stations is a very serious deficit to have considering the once-in-a-generation aspect of building these rapid transit lines.
More stations = slower ride for most sadly.
 

WislaHD

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But the RL North proposal itself was flawed too. If going up Don Mills, midblock stations should be incorporated as well (Barber Greene, Bond and Graydon Hall). Lack of stations is a very serious deficit to have considering the once-in-a-generation aspect of building these rapid transit lines.
Only Barber Greene would make much sense, but only if attached with significant rezoning of the area.
 

44 North

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Not building a line to use TR's does not mean it doesn't have the capacity in mind, based on the OL's specs it may even match the traditional lines with ATC in terms of capacity.

I also would pose the question, if the RLS was being planned so carefully why were measures not taken to go at grade like the OL to reduce the cost and hence make the project an easier sell to the Province? Why was Queen chosen over King despite King quite likely offering better ridership? I've looked through plenty of documentation and particularly the stuff talking about different routes basically just shows different sized circles for different attributes of each route with little in the way of assumptions made or other hard numbers. It all feels very much like ECLRT West ridership studies did . . .
Why not read the RL reports so that you can answer these questions. Going at grade was looked at and deemed not feasible in the areas south of Bloor. And guess what, Metrolinx also looked at it and deemed it not feasible. Then post-election somehow it is.

With regards to rolling stock, I think not using TRs is fine. But there's no question the capacity numbers touted are unbelievably high. For a 100m train, using <3m width cars, 25k peak hour per direction seems reasonable. Albeit at the high end. But they have something like 10k above that. And they don't even know the trains yet.

But the RL North proposal itself was flawed too. If going up Don Mills, midblock stations should be incorporated as well (Barber Greene, Bond and Graydon Hall). Lack of stations is a very serious deficit to have considering the once-in-a-generation aspect of building these rapid transit lines.
Did we get to the point to deem it flawed? Last I remember there was a variety of alignments going from Leslie to Vic Park. But then nothing came of it. I was actually keen to see the results because the Vic Park alignment was so unconventional but potentially interesting.
 

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