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Ontario Line (was Relief Line South, in Design)

WislaHD

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AFAIR the GO-RER in the document was essentially as envisioned prior to SmartTrack. It assumed no fare integration, minimal to no bus integration, no additional 416 stations, ~10 minute peak frequencies (including additional upgrades to the Richmond Hill line), no straightening of Richmond Hill.

It's shouldn't have been a surprise that with that specific configuration showed few passengers transferring from TTC.

A GO Expansion with a stations at most major streets (Steeles, Finch, York Mills, Lawrence, Eglinton, ...), TTC bus connections, full fare integration (free transfers @ roughly $150M/year subsidy; less than the Ford subway plan will require in additional subsidy), and 5 to 7 minute all day frequencies would likely have different results with the same modelling program.
None of which will happen on the Richmond Hill line because of it's multitude of complications.

And if we did invest the billions to rebuild the RH GO into an RER service, it would be an even more epic waste of money than the Scarborough subway.

Better to just use the money on a proper Relief Line.
 

micheal_can

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None of which will happen on the Richmond Hill line because of it's multitude of complications.

And if we did invest the billions to rebuild the RH GO into an RER service, it would be an even more epic waste of money than the Scarborough subway.

Better to just use the money on a proper Relief Line.
Which is wy I hate it when every new political leader must reinvent the wheel.They did it with SRT. They are doing it with ST and EC, and they are trying to do it to this line. Toronto has 3 very good types of higher order transit. Stick with them and use them as needed.
 

Rainforest

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It always puzzles me that the city and TTC are complaining about funding, yet Toronto property taxes are one of the lowest percentage in all of Ontario, and even in Canada. Bump it up higher, and not only be able to afford the expansions, but also possibly cool the housing market. Seriously, if you can afford the $1,000,000 mortgage, you can afford the taxes that you should be paying on it.
Toronto property taxes rates are low, but when multiplied by the high house costs, lead to significant tax burdens.

One concern is people on limited incomes, like seniors with pensions, who bought their houses long ago for say $200K. Their house may cost $1.2M today, but they do not benefit in any way from that on-paper increase untill they sell, an they can't afford a 6x tax amount. Taxing them at full rate would be equivalent to forcing them to sell and expelling them from the neighborhood.
 

micheal_can

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Toronto property taxes rates are low, but when multiplied by the high house costs, lead to significant tax burdens.

One concern is people on limited incomes, like seniors with pensions, who bought their houses long ago for say $200K. Their house may cost $1.2M today, but they do not benefit in any way from that on-paper increase untill they sell, an they can't afford a 6x tax amount. Taxing them at full rate would be equivalent to forcing them to sell and expelling them from the neighborhood.
You mean voters would be pissed that their going to see skyrocketing property tax assessments and would vote in people who will fix the housing crisis?

There, I fixed it for you.
 

TorPronto

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Toronto property taxes rates are low, but when multiplied by the high house costs, lead to significant tax burdens.
RE Low rates- It's something most people don't get. Compare a 2000 sq ft home in different parts of the GTA and then you would likely see a higher burder on Toronto homeowners. Saying that, as just mentioned Toronto taxes should be lower based on our huge business tax base and the fact that we have higher density.

One concern is people on limited incomes, like seniors with pensions, who bought their houses long ago for say $200K. Their house may cost $1.2M today, but they do not benefit in any way from that on-paper increase untill they sell, an they can't afford a 6x tax amount. Taxing them at full rate would be equivalent to forcing them to sell and expelling them from the neighborhood.
I'm a little confused by what's written. If a house is assessed at $1.2M, they pay taxes accordingly regardless of when they bought it. The only time there would have been any X change was when the province switched over to a value based tax system decades ago (or huge jumps in value between assessments).
 

micheal_can

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RE Low rates- It's something most people don't get. Compare a 2000 sq ft home in different parts of the GTA and then you would likely see a higher burder on Toronto homeowners. Saying that, as just mentioned Toronto taxes should be lower based on our huge business tax base and the fact that we have higher density.



I'm a little confused by what's written. If a house is assessed at $1.2M, they pay taxes accordingly regardless of when they bought it. The only time there would have been any X change was when the province switched over to a value based tax system decades ago (or huge jumps in value between assessments).
Size does not matter. Lets say an assessed $500k house, everywhere, the city of Toronto will collect less taxes than other places. Ironically, Timmins has one of the highest property taxes, so if Toronto implemented those taxes, it would definitely hurt.

The Vancouver area has an additional gas tax added at the pumps. Maybe that can be done too.
 

Streety McCarface

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Size does not matter. Lets say an assessed $500k house, everywhere, the city of Toronto will collect less taxes than other places. Ironically, Timmins has one of the highest property taxes, so if Toronto implemented those taxes, it would definitely hurt.

The Vancouver area has an additional gas tax added at the pumps. Maybe that can be done too.
That's what she said.

But seriously, we can afford marginal increases in the property tax levels even if we are fairly burdened as is.
 

Rainforest

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You mean voters would be pissed that their going to see skyrocketing property tax assessments and would vote in people who will fix the housing crisis?
They won't vote for any particular people. They will just sell their house and leave the area, or the city altogether, because they can no longer afford to live here.
 

Rainforest

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I'm a little confused by what's written. If a house is assessed at $1.2M, they pay taxes accordingly regardless of when they bought it. The only time there would have been any X change was when the province switched over to a value based tax system decades ago (or huge jumps in value between assessments).
Imagine you bought the house 35 years ago, for $200 K. Based on that value, your property tax was say $2K per year.

Fast-forward to this day, the house prices skyrocketed, and now the market value of you house is $1.2M. It is the same house, it didn't get any bigger or better. But if the same tax rate applies to the new market value, then you would have to pay $12K per year in property tax. If you are on a fixed income and can't afford it, then your only option is to sell and move into a less expensive town.

Toronto softens that effect, both by having asessed property values somewhat lower than the current market values, and by keeping property tax rates somewhat lower than in the surrounding municipalities.
 

tiffer24

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Imagine you bought the house 35 years ago, for $200 K. Based on that value, your property tax was say $2K per year.

Fast-forward to this day, the house prices skyrocketed, and now the market value of you house is $1.2M. It is the same house, it didn't get any bigger or better. But if the same tax rate applies to the new market value, then you would have to pay $12K per year in property tax. If you are on a fixed income and can't afford it, then your only option is to sell and move into a less expensive town.
Why would anyone have the expectation that property taxes remain locked in place for 35 years? If you buy a house, you should be aware of the costs.
 
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micheal_can

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Imagine you bought the house 35 years ago, for $200 K. Based on that value, your property tax was say $2K per year.

Fast-forward to this day, the house prices skyrocketed, and now the market value of you house is $1.2M. It is the same house, it didn't get any bigger or better. But if the same tax rate applies to the new market value, then you would have to pay $12K per year in property tax. If you are on a fixed income and can't afford it, then your only option is to sell and move into a less expensive town.

Toronto softens that effect, both by having asessed property values somewhat lower than the current market values, and by keeping property tax rates somewhat lower than in the surrounding municipalities.
Why would anyone have the expectation that property taxes remain locked in place for 35 years? If you buy a house, you should be aware of the costs.
My taxes are based on the value, not on what I purchased it for. I fully expect that as the market rises, my taxes are going up. If it skyrockets, then either I sell it and move elsewhere, or , I vote for someone that will stop the skyrocketing.

The problem a lot of old people have is they think they are entitled to special treatment because they are old. No. You chose the life you live. Now live with the consequences of it.
 

Rainforest

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My taxes are based on the value, not on what I purchased it for. I fully expect that as the market rises, my taxes are going up. If it skyrockets, then either I sell it and move elsewhere, or , I vote for someone that will stop the skyrocketing.

The problem a lot of old people have is they think they are entitled to special treatment because they are old. No. You chose the life you live. Now live with the consequences of it.
But when they purchased, they had no way of knowing the value of their property will rise so much that they will be priced out of town.

I guess you can adopt this approach, and in some way, it leads to economic efficiency. Long-term residents pushed out of town, their houses are purchased by newcomers with good incomes who can pay a lot of tax to the city, the province, and the feds.

And yet, this doesn't feel right somehow.
 

Rainforest

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Why would anyone have the expectation that property taxes remain locked in place for 35 years? If you buy a house, you should be aware of the costs.
Not exactly locked in place, but you could expect them to rise on par with inflation, and hopefully on par with your inflation-adjusted income. Not 10% every year when the inflation is in the 2% range.
 

micheal_can

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But when they purchased, they had no way of knowing the value of their property will rise so much that they will be priced out of town.

I guess you can adopt this approach, and in some way, it leads to economic efficiency. Long-term residents pushed out of town, their houses are purchased by newcomers with good incomes who can pay a lot of tax to the city, the province, and the feds.

And yet, this doesn't feel right somehow.
Not exactly locked in place, but you could expect them to rise on par with inflation, and hopefully on par with your inflation-adjusted income. Not 10% every year when the inflation is in the 2% range.
What doesn't seem right is a city complaining they have no money when condos and houses are going for $500k+ What doesn't seem right is when the old people complain about the rise in taxes, but refuse to move.

We are not like the old European cities where the house is owned by several generations.
 

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