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Ontario Line (was Relief Line South, in Design)

sixrings

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Hey no need to attack me. I've made my position clear that I want the Scarborough subway to be affordable. Which is why I keep banging on about elevated and cut-and-cover. Also, as a general observation, the personal attacks (on both sides) when it comes to anything Scarborough subway related are getting tiresome.
But although people on here keep saying cut and cover and or elevated clearly those options aren't politically favourable otherwise someone would have suggested those ideas already. I can't believe that politicians are so dumb they don't know these options exist. Rather they know that if they mention them they will lose votes. So they promise subways because people like fancy things. And they never dare mention elevated for fears of nimbys and cut and cover for fears of car drivers. If we had a dictatorship perhaps we could build cheaper. But we have a democracy so sometimes we have to do things the more expensive way. That or promise the more expensive way and then build nothing. That or elect a premier who thinks he's a dictator who will simply use the not withstanding clause on everything he wants to do. Maybe Scarborough is on to something after all.
 

BurlOak

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But although people on here keep saying cut and cover and or elevated clearly those options aren't politically favourable otherwise someone would have suggested those ideas already. I can't believe that politicians are so dumb they don't know these options exist. Rather they know that if they mention them they will lose votes. So they promise subways because people like fancy things. And they never dare mention elevated for fears of nimbys and cut and cover for fears of car drivers. If we had a dictatorship perhaps we could build cheaper. But we have a democracy so sometimes we have to do things the more expensive way. That or promise the more expensive way and then build nothing. That or elect a premier who thinks he's a dictator who will simply use the not withstanding clause on everything he wants to do. Maybe Scarborough is on to something after all.
After witnessing the Eglinton LRT construction, cut-and-cover could work. Just announce that it is twice as fast because the stations are less than half as deep. After Eglinton, people will say that disruption can't be any worse.
 

44 North

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Check this site out. http://carto.metro.free.fr/cartes/metro-paris/

And in advance, I apologize for the several hours of your day you are likely to lose.

Dan
I've had that site bookmarked for a good few years now, and actually checked its Paris section the night I posted. Just the Toronto section alone is unbelievably praiseworthy. Thanks for the tip though.

But yea, that whole secretive rollout was ridiculous. And we still haven’t heard their super secret Scarborough Subway plan nearly
18 months after they teased them. I’m sure they’ll be just marvellous.
Well it was certainly better than the SmartTrack map (shudder).

Aides: Maybe before we show the public we can have the map look not ugly?
Tory: Hmm, nah.
 

WislaHD

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After witnessing the Eglinton LRT construction, cut-and-cover could work. Just announce that it is twice as fast because the stations are less than half as deep. After Eglinton, people will say that disruption can't be any worse.
Yeah, it should be evident after the Eglinton experience that tunneled options still disrupt roads.
 

sixrings

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Yeah, it should be evident after the Eglinton experience that tunneled options still disrupt roads.
It wasn't just the disruption of traffic though why elevated isn't favoured by nimbys. They think elevated is an eyesore. You can keep saying look at Vancouver all you want. We aren't in Vancouver and people will say why do the suburbs have to get ugly elevated transit while the elites get underground transit. For goodness sake Vaughan got underground transit. Shouldn't Torontonians at least get underground transit as well. Shouldn't those who have to travel the furthest at least get the warmth of indoor stations. These are the talking points that keep elevated from being a politically viable option. It's easy to say this is what they should have done. But if the voters are going to freak out then they aren't going to risk their jobs. Which is why lrt never got the Scarborough support. No one's going to risk not being able to pay their own mortgage selling something the people don't want. Easier to sell something they want that's more expensive or likely won't get built. It won't be your problem. It will be the next politicians problem 20 years down the road when you're retired at your cottage.
 

W. K. Lis

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^Then do cut-and-cover
The Relief Line was to be deeper than the cut and cover used by the Line 2 Bloor-Danforth. People still complain about the vibration and noise caused by trains passing underneath. The depth was to reduce that. It also was more expensive because of the deeper station access.

With the Ontario Line, it could be built cheaper by digging more shallower. However, we would expect more noise and vibration from the trains being more closer to the surface, and from the trains going by in the open air.

 

WislaHD

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There is never pleasing everyone, and right now the "hurr durr my 5 lane roads" and the "my eyes are offended by elevated trains even though I support rebuilding the Gardiner" NIMBY groups are loudest and control our politics.

Let noise and vibration be the raison d'etre of later generations of NIMBYs if it means we build effective transit in Scarborough today (Yes, Toronto transit has made a cynic out of me).
 

sixrings

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There is never pleasing everyone, and right now the "hurr durr my 5 lane roads" and the "my eyes are offended by elevated trains even though I support rebuilding the Gardiner" NIMBY groups are loudest and control our politics.

Let noise and vibration be the raison d'etre of later generations of NIMBYs if it means we build effective transit in Scarborough today (Yes, Toronto transit has made a cynic out of me).
I hate nimbys too but it isn't my job on the line. It's easier to punt the political football years down the road then be honest with people today.
 

jaybe

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Perhaps I'm too cynical but the Ontario Line appears to be an exercise in obfuscation by the Tories. It looks like the CPC is now on-board too. The Ontario Line Proposal is not dramatically different than the previously proposed Relief Line but it is different enough to cause to multi-year delay in spending on the project. The cynic in me says this is what the Tories are targeting, give the impression that something is happening and delay the expenditures as long as possible. The goal isn't to build transit, the goal is to avoid spending money.
 

sixrings

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Perhaps I'm too cynical but the Ontario Line appears to be an exercise in obfuscation by the Tories. It looks like the CPC is now on-board too. The Ontario Line Proposal is not dramatically different than the previously proposed Relief Line but it is different enough to cause to multi-year delay in spending on the project. The cynic in me says this is what the Tories are targeting, give the impression that something is happening and delay the expenditures as long as possible. The goal isn't to build transit, the goal is to avoid spending money.
That's not the cynic in you speaking. That's reasonable thought. The drl was being studied and we threw those plans away to reinvent the wheel. This is all brought to you by people who never take public transit and I am supposed to believe they are being honest in their dealings.
 

sixrings

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Perhaps I'm too cynical but the Ontario Line appears to be an exercise in obfuscation by the Tories. It looks like the CPC is now on-board too. The Ontario Line Proposal is not dramatically different than the previously proposed Relief Line but it is different enough to cause to multi-year delay in spending on the project. The cynic in me says this is what the Tories are targeting, give the impression that something is happening and delay the expenditures as long as possible. The goal isn't to build transit, the goal is to avoid spending money.
That's not the cynic in you speaking. That's reasonable thought. The drl was being studied and we threw those plans away to reinvent the wheel. This is all brought to you by people who never take public transit and I am supposed to believe they are being honest in their dealings.
 

BurlOak

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There is never pleasing everyone, and right now the "hurr durr my 5 lane roads" and the "my eyes are offended by elevated trains even though I support rebuilding the Gardiner" NIMBY groups are loudest and control our politics.

Let noise and vibration be the raison d'etre of later generations of NIMBYs if it means we build effective transit in Scarborough today (Yes, Toronto transit has made a cynic out of me).
Meet the Reason Why NYC’s Newest Subway Is So Quiet

The [new] concrete ties have individual concrete boots, encased in rubber that mitigates the vibration of the trains. The MTA said these “low vibration” tracks cost $3,500 per linear foot, compared to traditional wooden railroad ties that cost $4,000 per linear foot.
Sound absorbing panels were also installed on the station’s ceiling and walls.
 

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