Toronto Ontario Line 3 | ?m | ?s

[sixrings]

We almost had half of a nice thing, as the RL North was never going to happen anyway

Even if that was true at least it would have been constructed properly and then the north could have done their best Scarborough impression and have demanded their subway extension.

 

[raptor]

Even if that was true at least it would have been constructed properly and then the north could have done their best Scarborough impression and have demanded their subway extension.

You read the Star too much

 

[Hopkins123]

We almost had a nice thing, but then Doug Ford replaced it with the Ontario Line.

"Nice" my left nut! Where was the Parliament Street Station or anything west of Osgoode or north of Pape in the City's plan, which was budgeted itself in excess of $7 billion? You may not like the Ford Conservatives but to say that this is a bad plan when it mirrors the original routing and vision for the DRL going back to the 80s/90s is patently wrong logic.

 

[sixrings]

"Nice" my left nut! Where was the Parliament Street Station or anything west of Osgoode or north of Pape in the City's plan, which was budgeted itself in excess of $7 billion? You may not like the Ford Conservatives but to say that this is a bad plan when it mirrors the original routing and vision for the DRL going back to the 80s/90s is patently wrong logic.

I'd like to read one article by an expert that thinks building this line without heavy rail (larger trains, larger capacity) is a good idea.

 

[syn]

Sorry, from out of town here. I forge whether I've asked this before. What is actually wrong with the SRT?

To be perfectly honest, I love the RT. It's a quick ride to STC, in 10 mins or less. The tech may be older, but can't complain about the results.

 

[OneCity]

From the neighborhood group in opposition:


"Hello Everyone

We wanted to thank all of you who came out to the Town Hall Meeting last evening. Special thanks to those who spoke up on behalf of our community.

It was standing room only and we believe the message is getting out to the community. Besides Peter and Paula, Metrolinx Representative Jamie Robinson, Director of Community Relations and Communications - Rapid Transit Projects was present, as well as Jessica Bell who serves as the Ontario NDP critic for Transit and is MPP for University/Rosedale. Jessica spoke about the flaws in the Ontario Plan. Media was also in attendance, with Ben Spurr of the Toronto Star live tweeting the meeting via Twitter.

Once we have had a chance to decipher all the notes on the wall, we will send out highlights from the meeting. Next Steps: Paula and Peter are planning a follow-up meeting with the community to develop a strategy on how to mobilize as a group politically. The meeting will be held either October 8 or 10th. We will keep you posted.

If you were not able to make last night’s meeting, attached are the handouts that were provided. We recommend emailing Peter and Paula to be added to their distribution lists, so that you receive updates directly from them as well:

Peter Tabuns: tabunsp-co@ndp.on.ca

Paula Fletcher: councillor_fletcher@toronto.ca

Important: The City Executive Council Meeting of September 18 has taken the Ontario Line discussion off the agenda, so do not attend this meeting if you were planning on it. The Ontario Line discussion is now going to take place on October 23rd. Mark your calendar.

Finally, we will have a booth at the Ralph Thornton Community Centre open house tomorrow (Saturday), September 14 from 12 - 5 P.M."

I hope the NDP take an angle that is helpful in improving the line rather then a full out opposition of all things Ford. I don't see enough wrong with the plan to start over again after this term is up.

 

[syn]

I'd like to read one article by an expert that thinks building this line without heavy rail (larger trains, larger capacity) is a good idea.

Not to mention potentially limiting GO capacity in the future.

This is why we can't have nice things

Don't the people of downtown deserve subways?

We almost had half of a nice thing, as the RL North was never going to happen anyway

Why not?

With the province in charge of subway construction, why can't they just build the DRL South and DRL North as originally intended?

One of the main reasons to split the project into different phases was to ensure the likelihood of funding.

 

[Coolstar]

I'd like to read one article by an expert that thinks building this line without heavy rail (larger trains, larger capacity) is a good idea.

Vancouver SkyTrain, Ottawa Light Rail(Light Metro)

 

[sixrings]

Vancouver SkyTrain, Ottawa Light Rail(Light Metro)

Neither of those are articles written by experts and neither the sky train or the Ottawa line need to transport the amount of people the Drl needs to in order for yonge to not be over capacity.

I'm fully aware this tech exists but I've yet to hear one expert, other than a pc employee, advocate that this is a good idea in this location.

 

[MisterF]

"Nice" my left nut! Where was the Parliament Street Station or anything west of Osgoode or north of Pape in the City's plan, which was budgeted itself in excess of $7 billion? You may not like the Ford Conservatives but to say that this is a bad plan when it mirrors the original routing and vision for the DRL going back to the 80s/90s is patently wrong logic.

Is it really necessary to point out that it's normal to build rapid transit lines in phases? Is this not common knowledge?

The most recent DRL plan was far superior to the one from the 80s. And it left smaller gaps between stations than the Ontario Line.

Vancouver SkyTrain, Ottawa Light Rail(Light Metro)

The demand on the DRL/Ontario line route is much higher than anywhere in those two cities. Light metro is great for Eglinton or Finch or Scarborough Town Centre, but not for the DRL route through the heart of downtown Toronto.

 

[44 North]

"Nice" my left nut! Where was the Parliament Street Station or anything west of Osgoode or north of Pape in the City's plan, which was budgeted itself in excess of $7 billion? You may not like the Ford Conservatives but to say that this is a bad plan when it mirrors the original routing and vision for the DRL going back to the 80s/90s is patently wrong logic.

It doesn't actually 'mirror' the DRL from the 80s though. Part of it mirrors some ideas. But any stuff about using the rail corridor east of the valley, or cantilevering a viaduct above the rail corridor, were soundly rejected. Over thirty years ago. And now they're back.

There's some serious flaws with this Ontario Line. Do you recall the dozens of routing alignments or reports on station analyses from the RL? Have we seen anything similar with this? This is one iteration of doodle that was only recently shown to the public, that's seemingly being made up as it goes along, and it's rehashing ideas from the 80s as if there aren't reports explaining why these ideas should be rejected. It also seems to run counter to active plans by the current gov't/Metrolinx regarding the rail corridor.

 

[Steve X]

It doesn't actually 'mirror' the DRL from the 80s though. Part of it mirrors some ideas. But any stuff about using the rail corridor east of the valley, or cantilevering a viaduct above the rail corridor, were soundly rejected. Over thirty years ago. And now they're back.

There's some serious flaws with this Ontario Line. Do you recall the dozens of routing alignments or reports on station analyses from the RL? Have we seen anything similar with this? This is one iteration of doodle that was only recently shown to the public, that's seemingly being made up as it goes along, and it's rehashing ideas from the 80s as if there aren't reports explaining why these ideas should be rejected. It also seems to run counter to active plans by the current gov't/Metrolinx regarding the rail corridor.

I wouldn't call the OL a serious flaw. Two station have significantly shifted in location. Building on top of the railway corridor doesn't make it bad if it can be done. Alignment choices are often political, the RL was chosen to please the city while the OL is to please Ford. Different planners would prioritize on different criteria. Cost will always have the biggest constraint leading to opposition. Nothing is perfect. Queen Street is chosen cause they want a station entrance right in front of Nathan Phillips Square. Ripping up an existent design is probably a bad idea. Ford himself would have no knowledge of transit planning. The idea has to have come from ML themselves.

I'd like to read one article by an expert that thinks building this line without heavy rail (larger trains, larger capacity) is a good idea.

No one said the line is going to be built with light rail vehicles. A smaller heavy rail would likely be chosen. All the OL initial business case states the train will be smaller than TTC subway train but still much bigger than SkyTrain/Confederation Line with 3.0m width and 100m length trains and a train capacity of 730-850. To put that in reference, the trains should be similar to the 4-car TRs on Sheppard, slightly longer and slightly narrower. The SkyTrain/Confederation Line are in the 500-600 passenger per train range.

There is a flaw through. There expect to achieve 40 trains per hour to carry the same capacity as the TR does with manual operation (OL targets 29,300-34,000 ppdph) but realistically they would hit 35 trains per hour (25,500-29,750 ppdph). Nevertheless, that capacity would still be higher than those SkyTrains/Confederation Line which maxes out around 20,000-21,000 ppdph. So they might need 110m trains to make up the differences. The planned used of screen doors might help.

In summary, yes the OL trains will carry less riders than TR with ATO but no the line is not stupidly under capacity. They aren't the tiny SRT trains!

 

[Hopkins123]

Is it really necessary to point out that it's normal to build rapid transit lines in phases? Is this not common knowledge?

The most recent DRL plan was far superior to the one from the 80s. And it left smaller gaps between stations than the Ontario Line.


The demand on the DRL/Ontario line route is much higher than anywhere in those two cities. Light metro is great for Eglinton or Finch or Scarborough Town Centre, but not for the DRL route through the heart of downtown Toronto.

Tell that to the poor souls along the Sheppard corridor whom have been waiting close to 20 years for their next phases of construction only to be told in this political climate that the extensions will likely never happen.

When YUS and BD were constructed in phases work was already in place for a next phase to open within a matter of a few years, not decades long gaps like what happened with TYSSE.

So I turn the question back to you: can we really afford not to build as much of the Ontario Line/DRL as possible before a new regime considers it a vanity project rather than a necessity and it is deferred indefinitely? You may want to roll the dice, but I don't.

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

When YUS and BD were constructed in phases work was already in place for a next phase to open within a matter of a few years, not decades long gaps like what happened with TYSSE.

Not quite true - there is an almost 20 year gap for the Yonge extension north from Eglinton; and TYSSE would have happened a lot sooner if the governments actually funded it - it is a funding, not a planning issue.

Anyways, as to DRL/OL - what's being proposed is okay so long as care is taken with regards to future capacity allowances. Fairly agnostic about train choices, but skimping on station length and counting on ATC to maximize throughput should be considered an unacceptable red line.

AoD

 

[sixrings]

Tell that to the poor souls along the Sheppard corridor whom have been waiting close to 20 years for their next phases of construction only to be told in this political climate that the extensions will likely never happen.

When YUS and BD were constructed in phases work was already in place for a next phase to open within a matter of a few years, not decades long gaps like what happened with TYSSE.

So I turn the question back to you: can we really afford not to build as much of the Ontario Line/DRL as possible before a new regime considers it a vanity project rather than a necessity and it is deferred indefinitely? You may want to roll the dice, but I don't.

Generally people realized Sheppard was a political mistake as soon as it was built, especially the filling in of Eglinton west. I doubt that is going to happen with the relief line. All the numbers show this line isn't a luxury but a necessary. Sheppard on the other hand is a luxury.