Toronto Ontario Line 3 | ?m | ?s

[W. K. Lis]

Has there been a survey that shows the point of origin for people driving downtown? How many actually live near a subway station or GO station, but still drive downtown? For example, we mostly already know that some politicians would not dare mix with the common folk on public transit, but would prefer to be by themselves in an automobile.

 

[innsertnamehere]

I wouldn't go as far as removing the 501, actually I would like to see queen street pedestrianized as much as possible if king's streetcar is removed.

 

[diminutive]

I've always been a fan of having the DRL replace the 504, with stops at pape, Gerrard,
Carlaw/queen, until ever, PAN AM (front and the new park), parliament, Jarvis, Yonge, university, spadina, Bathurst,
Strachan, (maybe Atlantic, not really sure), dufferin, Jameson, queens way, dundas west. That's less stops than the existing route and would still be faster, while still providing a relatively short stop spacing to allow for the 504 to be eliminated.

Going underground would be a very expensive alternative to surface solutions, and would provide surprisingly modest benefits.

If we implemented a strong transit priority system long the route (which in all likelihood would need to effectively ban cars from King), we could probably get travel speeds up towards 20km/h, which is quite common in Europe for these kinds of things. While slower than a subway, the overall shortness of the route would make any travel savings pretty modest. Combined with greater access times for a subway and the effective time savings would probably be less than 10 minutes for the longest trips possible on the corridor, which seems like questionable gain for the many billions it would cost to implement.

Not that actually banning cars from King would be easy, either though. I'd like to think the transit malls are a no brainer here, but they haven't been thusfar so who knows.

Even still, we should be honest that the most efficient solution to the streetcar's travel woes is to implement transit malls. An underground solution would cost many, many billions to deliver only a few more benefits.

 

[ehlow]

It's OK in general to have denser stop spacing downtown, and wider outside. It won't slow down your trip that much because you leave downtown after 5 minutes.

In the map you show it quickly transitions to 1km, then 2km stop spacing, which is very fast.

Having said that, I would personally likely remove 2 or 3 stops from your map from the 5 stops closest to Yonge.

 

[ehlow]

Going underground would be a very expensive alternative to surface solutions, and would provide surprisingly modest benefits.

If we implemented a strong transit priority system long the route (which in all likelihood would need to effectively ban cars from King), we could probably get travel speeds up towards 20km/h, which is quite common in Europe for these kinds of things. While slower than a subway, the overall shortness of the route would make any travel savings pretty modest. Combined with greater access times for a subway and the effective time savings would probably be less than 10 minutes for the longest trips possible on the corridor, which seems like questionable gain for the many billions it would cost to implement.

Not that actually banning cars from King would be easy, either though. I'd like to think the transit malls are a no brainer here, but they haven't been thusfar so who knows.

Even still, we should be honest that the most efficient solution to the streetcar's travel woes is to implement transit malls. An underground solution would cost many, many billions to deliver only a few more benefits.

I'm skeptical any surface vehicle will go fast downtown, because:

1. The density of intersections with traffic lights through downtown.
2. Your sketch shows a pedestrian friendly environment. Usually in these areas speed limits are low in case a pedestrian (or bike) crosses the street. There are other factors where pedestrian friendliness and speed of surface vehicles are opposed. For example, pedestrian friendly roads have small blocks with frequent intersections. Pedestrians often feel uncomfortable around vehicles going very fast. Imagine sitting on a patio like the ones pictured above and a streetcar zooms by at 60km/h inches from you.

These aren't issues in suburban areas which is why (in my opinion) surface LRT is best in suburban areas, because they go fastest due to lack of intersections and wide fast roads with high speed limits.

 

[newearthling]

Is there any good reason why single occupancy vehicles cannot be banned from King and Queen? Taxis and delivery vehicles could be accepted I guess, but that would be hard to police.

 

[Ervin]

Alivin, Mister , ehlow and everyone else

This is a DRL consensus a made up which we can reach in 20 years after phase 1:

View attachment 27559

But look how many stops there are between Dufferin and Broadview! How does this help commuters get home. Or is that fine because it's to provide more service and open up the inner city a bit. Both arguments have merit.

I completely agree with the eastern portion of this route, but I have reservations about the west. Firstly I don't see the justification for a stop between Spadina and Union, I know the walk there is a bit long, but nowhere near long enough to justify another stop. Secondly, no Stratchan sop; that area has seen an incredible amount of construction recently and more is on the way, so a stop there would make a lot of sense.

 

[gweed123]

I wouldn't go as far as removing the 501, actually I would like to see queen street pedestrianized as much as possible if king's streetcar is removed.

Is there any good reason why single occupancy vehicles cannot be banned from King and Queen? Taxis and delivery vehicles could be accepted I guess, but that would be hard to police.

I've been thinking about this, and I included an LRT along Queen and a DRL along King in my most recent fantasy map. The way I see it is that removing the streetcar on King and removing all car traffic on Queen would be a trade-off.

Queen would be arranged in such a way: (Sidewalk)(LRT)(Casual Bike)(Speed Bike)(Speed Bike)(Casual Bike)(LRT)(Sidewalk)

The LRT isolates the bikers (and rollerbladers) from the pedestrians, and the pedestrians get direct access to the LRT without having to cross in front of bikes. The other reason for putting the bike lanes down the middle is that those lanes can be used by emergency vehicles if needed, without disrupting the LRT flow. I put in 4 bike lanes because there are some people who like to casually bike, and some who would legitimately use it to get from Point A to Point B quickly. By putting those in the middle of the road, you minimize chances for accidental 'interactions'.

 

[AKS]

I completely agree with the eastern portion of this route, but I have reservations about the west. Firstly I don't see the justification for a stop between Spadina and Union, I know the walk there is a bit long, but nowhere near long enough to justify another stop. Secondly, no Stratchan sop; that area has seen an incredible amount of construction recently and more is on the way, so a stop there would make a lot of sense.

I don't think Stratchan has as much construction as the Spadina and Front area. There's a lot of construction at King West between bathurst and spadina (Freed), Entertainment district (too many to name), Spadina, Front street (upcoming Well, Fly, 300 Front), Cityplace.

 

[Ervin]

Yeah I know it's not nearly as populated, my main problem with it is the spacing, anybody living in that area is perfectly capable of walking to either Spadina or Union. Speaking of which, I would also get rid of Bathurst (assuming Stratchan get built instead), and I say that as someone who lives very close to Bathurst and front, Spadina is good enough for me.

 

[dunkalunk]

I completely agree with the eastern portion of this route, but I have reservations about the west. Firstly I don't see the justification for a stop between Spadina and Union, I know the walk there is a bit long, but nowhere near long enough to justify another stop. Secondly, no Stratchan sop; that area has seen an incredible amount of construction recently and more is on the way, so a stop there would make a lot of sense.

Despite being one of the major through streets, I don't think Strachan makes much sense in terms of a subway stop; it would be too close to Bathutst. I'd actually prefer a Bathurst stop get pushed west to Tecumseth or Niagara; still being close enough to connect to the Bathurst Streetcar, but not so close to Spadina that it has as much overlapping service radii.

Depending on how deep you go, you may only require one station between Spadina and St Lawrence. With long escalators, it would be quite feasible to have multiple entrances throughout the PATH system, in particular at York and Yonge. Two stations would have the advantage of distributing foot traffic though.

In any case, here's my vision for a Stage One from Sunnyside to Pape.



Extending it west past downtown in phase one would do a lot to relieve the streetcar network into Downtown, connect to GO to relieve Union from the West and provide a convenient extraction location at the Roncesvalles carhouse.

The teal line would simply be a modification of the electrified UP express with added stops on the existing Kitchener/Stouffville GO corridor and would serve as the de-facto western leg of the DRL until the time comes to expand it.

 

[muller877]

In any case, here's my vision for a Stage One from Sunnyside to Pape.




Extending it west past downtown in phase one would do a lot to relieve the streetcar network into Downtown, connect to GO to relieve Union from the West and provide a convenient extraction location at the Roncesvalles carhouse.

The teal line would simply be a modification of the electrified UP express with added stops on the existing Kitchener/Stouffville GO corridor and would serve as the de-facto western leg of the DRL until the time comes to expand it.

I question the benefit to bring it down to the portlands which will be well served by a LRT network. I would bring it along Queen St and have a Queen/Broadview Stn

Shaw makes sense. It's the heart of the Liberty Village area.

Youur Liberty stop...is it at Dufferin? I don't think there would be enough demand for a stop here other than when the Ex is on (and the cost for 15 days?). The Dufferin bus would need to meet the subway (at Shaw) but the extra cost for a few more drivers is much cheaper than another stop.

For Sunnyside GO, I'm not sure if there is enough room. They may have to take over the park on the south side of King to create enough rail corridor. But seems like a fair trade-off.

As for the first phase stop, I would extend it to Keele. If you extract at Sunnyside, then how do you get past St Joe's for phase 2? Extract in High Park (SE corner of the park). Then cut and cover on the west side of the street (in High Park) all the way to Keele Stn.

This creates an added bonus of getting the west-end politicians on your side.

overall, a really good plan

 

[P23]

I've been thinking about this, and I included an LRT along Queen and a DRL along King in my most recent fantasy map. The way I see it is that removing the streetcar on King and removing all car traffic on Queen would be a trade-off.

Queen would be arranged in such a way: (Sidewalk)(LRT)(Casual Bike)(Speed Bike)(Speed Bike)(Casual Bike)(LRT)(Sidewalk)

The LRT isolates the bikers (and rollerbladers) from the pedestrians, and the pedestrians get direct access to the LRT without having to cross in front of bikes. The other reason for putting the bike lanes down the middle is that those lanes can be used by emergency vehicles if needed, without disrupting the LRT flow. I put in 4 bike lanes because there are some people who like to casually bike, and some who would legitimately use it to get from Point A to Point B quickly. By putting those in the middle of the road, you minimize chances for accidental 'interactions'.

If you were to remove all car traffic on the street, why not discard bike lanes and sidewalks altogether? Have the streetcars run inside a curbed lane in the centre of the street but simply pave the remainder of the street as one surface, preferably with some nice brick or stone. I think it would a fantastic solution for the busy sections of Queen like between Spadina and Yonge.

 

[W. K. Lis]

Better yet, ban all parking on the streetcar routes. Put in Green P parking lots/garages for those people who must use their cars. Put in curb track sidings, so that express streetcar service could be implemented. Use a DRL for true express service for commuters.

 

[AKS]

I think you need a stop at Spadina or Bathurst to relieve the King Street W street cars. When I get on at Spadina and King, the street cars get really packed. Especially when it rains, its even worse. You might need to wait for 1-2 street cars before getting on. I feel like a sardine in a can during rush hours.