Ontario Line (was Relief Line South, in Design)

[toronto647]

Weve become experts on spending billions of dollars to construct transit that doesn't solve the problem it's supposed to , while spending billions elsewhere to build lines that solve problems that don't exist.

I really wish these discussions would stop framing the DRL South as the end all and be all. I think it's clear that it was meant to be the 1st phase of a larger plan.

I don't care that a Ford government is behind this line. If it properly dealt with current capacity issues and was designed for expanded capacity down the road, I'd be thrilled.

Liberal, Conservative, NDP, whatever. It doesn't matter who came up with this plan. What matters is that it's not adequate, when it needs to be far beyond adequate.

It is personally frustrating when folks mention that DRL South was not the end all and an extension was coming. People don't realize the chances of an extension are slim. Look at our transit history in Toronto. NOTHING IS GUARANTEED. We have subways that were slated to be built but instead concrete was poured into them to close the tunnels. If all of these so call DRL South lovers want to say it was a great line.. okay cool... then build DRL North to Eglinton and DRL West to Exhibition Place at the same time. If we are going to get those extensions anyways then just build at the same time rather than waiting another 10-15 years for DRL North. Like lets stop joking around... DRL North would not have been operational till 2040 at the very least. At least with the Ontario Line it will be built by 2030 at the very latest. A whole 10 years quicker. Yonge Line by 2040 would be shut down due to health and safety concerns and we wouldn't have a yonge line if there would be no Ontario line by the early 2030s. Lets get Ontario Line built and all of us grow up. Accept what is happening and leave it in Gods hands. Look at the cup half full. Yes OL is not perfect but nothing in life is perfect. Only God himself is perfect so how can we expect a transit line to be perfect. I am in an area where the line will be elevated but who cares. My neigbours who I call my brothers and sisters across Toronto will benefit from the OL so I will make a sacrifice. It is what it is and holy moly lets stop complaining. People in the world do not have food, they do not have access to clean water, they are being tortured if they practice a certain faith, they are dying due to no health care. And here we are complaining about capacity issues and noise issues. Give me a break. Thank God you are in Canada and be happy for what you have. People around the world don't have a fraction of what we have. LETS GET THIS LINE BUILT!!!!

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

No, you can't just use rockets without changing the entire design to allow for wide turn radius, shallower grades and heavier elevated sections.

Gladly we're not even close to complete with design. We should change it while we have time.

 

[syn]

That drastic change is already happening right in front of us.

Last 30 years:

1. Downsview -- 1996.
2. Sheppard -- 4 new stops in 2002.
3. York University GO -- 2002.
4. TYSSE -- 5 new stops in 2017.
5. UPX -- 2 new stops in 2015. (The airport is technically not in Toronto)
6. Renforth Mississauga BRT station -- 2017. (Man, I'm being really generous here)

Next 15 years:

1. Crosstown LRT -- 23 new stops in 2022.
2. Finch West LRT -- 17 new stops in 2023.
3. Caledonia GO -- a brand new station on Eglinton, 2023.
4. Ontario Line -- 10 new stops around 2030.
5. Crosstown West -- 6 new stops around 2031.
6. Scarborough Extension -- 1 new stop (Sheppard/McCowan) presumably around 2028.... I only say one because the only "extension" is the part north of the STC. The rest replaces the Scarborough RT...
7. Yonge Subway Extension -- 1 new stop (Steeles) presumably around 2029.

Plus there's the big new bus terminal coming together at Kipling, and the near-total rebuild of Agincourt GO that is almost finished.

Put all of those pieces together and most of Transit City will actually be done. The main missing items are the Sheppard subway extension (which everyone seems committed to doing, just not before the mid-2030s) and a north/south LRT corridor on Jane.

The total: ~15 rapid transit stops built since 1990, ~40 are being delivered in the next few years, and ~20 more planned after that.

I'd put the Crosstown in the first list, as it was approved and started years ago.

There's virtually always a bevy of lines and long term plans at any given moment. I'm not sure we can be anymore confident of all of this getting done as we have been in the past.

 

[afransen]

Gladly we're not even close to complete with design. We should change it while we have time.

Go ahead and dream.

 

[allengeorge]

Next 15 years:

1. Crosstown LRT -- 23 new stops in 2022.
2. Finch West LRT -- 17 new stops in 2023.
3. Caledonia GO -- a brand new station on Eglinton, 2023.
4. Ontario Line -- 10 new stops around 2030.
5. Crosstown West -- 6 new stops around 2031.
6. Scarborough Extension -- 1 new stop (Sheppard/McCowan) presumably around 2028.... I only say one because the only "extension" is the part north of the STC. The rest replaces the Scarborough RT...
7. Yonge Subway Extension -- 1 new stop (Steeles) presumably around 2029.

Looking at the list above I wouldn't count our chickens before they've hatched.

I'm happy that the Ford government is making the right noises about transit, and appears to be continuing the GO RER expansion, which is way, way more than I expected when he was elected.That said, money hasn't been put down for this line yet. I truly hope something like this is designed and built soon. Truly.

 

[ARG1]

That drastic change is already happening right in front of us.

Last 30 years:

1. Downsview -- 1996.
2. Sheppard -- 4 new stops in 2002.
3. York University GO -- 2002.
4. TYSSE -- 5 new stops in 2017.
5. UPX -- 2 new stops in 2015. (The airport is technically not in Toronto)
6. Renforth Mississauga BRT station -- 2017. (Man, I'm being really generous here)

Next 15 years:

1. Crosstown LRT -- 23 new stops in 2022.
2. Finch West LRT -- 17 new stops in 2023.
3. Caledonia GO -- a brand new station on Eglinton, 2023.
4. Ontario Line -- 10 new stops around 2030.
5. Crosstown West -- 6 new stops around 2031.
6. Scarborough Extension -- 1 new stop (Sheppard/McCowan) presumably around 2028.... I only say one because the only "extension" is the part north of the STC. The rest replaces the Scarborough RT...
7. Yonge Subway Extension -- 1 new stop (Steeles) presumably around 2029.

Plus there's the big new bus terminal coming together at Kipling, and the near-total rebuild of Agincourt GO that is almost finished.

Put all of those pieces together and most of Transit City will actually be done. The main missing items are the Sheppard subway extension (which everyone seems committed to doing, just not before the mid-2030s) and a north/south LRT corridor on Jane.

The total: ~15 rapid transit stops built since 1990, ~40 are being delivered in the next few years, and ~20 more planned after that.

I guess an addendum, but Yonge North is planned to have a stop at Cummer/Drewry, so technically 2 stops in Toronto.

 

[toaster29]

Put all of those pieces together and most of Transit City will actually be done. The main missing items are the Sheppard subway extension (which everyone seems committed to doing, just not before the mid-2030s) and a north/south LRT corridor on Jane.

People along the western waterfront would disagree with you. The Waterfront West LRT (I'm talking west of Ontario Place) is nowhere in sight, and no alternatives are anywhere close, despite some of of the biggest growth in the city. This was a big part of Transit City.

 

[ARG1]

People along the western waterfront would disagree with you. The Waterfront West LRT (I'm talking west of Ontario Place) is nowhere in sight, and no alternatives are anywhere close, despite some of of the biggest growth in the city. This was a big part of Transit City.

Ye. Waterfront West was probably the only part of Transit City that I actually liked.

 

[Johnny Au]

Here's an interesting holdout:

 

[TossYourJacket]

1. Ontario Line -- 10 new stops around 2030.
2. Yonge Subway Extension -- 1 new stop (Steeles) presumably around 2029.

I really hope we don't open Yonge North before the Ontario Line though. But I'm sure we will, cus the government of the moment will want votes in the 905, and inevitably someone will die at Bloor-Yonge as a result.

 

[slapped_chicken]

Well, I love that we have more transit expansion than ever, but just about all of it has been smaller scale projects usually in the suburbs (arguably less urgent than RL, but still very useful).

No one seems to successfully tackle the urgent need for a new, large-scale subway project into downtown. We haven't had such a massive project yet since Line 1 and 2 were built. That's where transit expansion in Toronto is still struggling, to get those huge, critical and game-changing projects under construction.

OL is still susceptible to being yeeted into the trash, as much as I like it and am hopeful.

 

[TossYourJacket]

Well, I love that we have more transit expansion than ever, but just about all of it has been smaller scale projects usually in the suburbs (arguably less urgent than RL, but still very useful).

No one seems to successfully tackle the urgent need for a new, large-scale subway project into downtown. We haven't had such a massive project yet since Line 1 and 2 were built. That's where transit expansion in Toronto is still struggling, to get those huge, critical and game-changing projects under construction.

OL is still susceptible to being yeeted into the trash, as much as I like it and am hopeful.

The problem is that all our transit planning is run by politicians, and since downtown isn't seen as being as politically important as the suburbs are, all our transit goes to the suburbs, even when more is needed downtown as well. The only reason we are getting the OL/RL is because it helps commuters in swing ridings in Scarborough, not because it's good for any of the downtown (or downtown-adjacent) neighbourhoods.

I will say though that the OL seems to at least do more for people in the city core than the RL did, in that it at least provides a major east-west subway instead of being a dead end at Osgoode.

 

[micheal_can]

That's a pretty sick illustration, my initial expectations were of ford gifting us electrified cattle cars but that's way better

Speaking on the need of a second relief line, we'd probably debate on it till 2120 before it's built (unless Toronto experiences a drastic change in how it conducts transit expansion). Besides, assuming the alignment of a potential RL 2 veers further east than OL, is it reasonable to upgrade the Stoufville RER with more stations (*cough* smarttrack resurrected) or is that corridor too far east? I do feel kinda concerned now that once they extend this line beyond Eglinton, it's gonna be level 99 sardines at peak

GO RER will happen, eventually. Providing there is good fare integration, it can be a relief for the entire subway system. The question will be when will it happen.

We've become experts on spending billions of dollars to construct transit that doesn't solve the problem it's supposed to, while spending billions elsewhere to solve problems that don't exist.

I really wish these discussions would stop framing the DRL South as the end all and be all. I think it's clear that it was meant to be the 1st phase of a larger plan.

I don't care that a Ford government is behind this line. If it properly dealt with current capacity issues and was designed for expanded capacity down the road, I'd be thrilled.

Liberal, Conservative, NDP, whatever. It doesn't matter who came up with this plan. What matters is that it's not adequate, when it needs to be far beyond adequate.

The issue is that every new politician has to come up with a new plan. They cannot just continue with the plans that already are in place and have local buy in. Smartrack is a great example of this.

It is personally frustrating when folks mention that DRL South was not the end all and an extension was coming. People don't realize the chances of an extension are slim. Look at our transit history in Toronto. NOTHING IS GUARANTEED. We have subways that were slated to be built but instead concrete was poured into them to close the tunnels. If all of these so call DRL South lovers want to say it was a great line.. okay cool... then build DRL North to Eglinton and DRL West to Exhibition Place at the same time. If we are going to get those extensions anyways then just build at the same time rather than waiting another 10-15 years for DRL North. Like lets stop joking around... DRL North would not have been operational till 2040 at the very least. At least with the Ontario Line it will be built by 2030 at the very latest. A whole 10 years quicker. Yonge Line by 2040 would be shut down due to health and safety concerns and we wouldn't have a yonge line if there would be no Ontario line by the early 2030s. Lets get Ontario Line built and all of us grow up. Accept what is happening and leave it in Gods hands. Look at the cup half full. Yes OL is not perfect but nothing in life is perfect. Only God himself is perfect so how can we expect a transit line to be perfect. I am in an area where the line will be elevated but who cares. My neigbours who I call my brothers and sisters across Toronto will benefit from the OL so I will make a sacrifice. It is what it is and holy moly lets stop complaining. People in the world do not have food, they do not have access to clean water, they are being tortured if they practice a certain faith, they are dying due to no health care. And here we are complaining about capacity issues and noise issues. Give me a break. Thank God you are in Canada and be happy for what you have. People around the world don't have a fraction of what we have. LETS GET THIS LINE BUILT!!!!

I think the biggest issue isn't the route so much as the rolling stock. Yes people were going on about Science Centre station, but the biggest flaw that is obvious is the capacity.

Who cares about station names? Who cares which station is closer than the other? Who cares where the stations will go? None of that will matter if the line is congested quickly after it opens.

I really hope we don't open Yonge North before the Ontario Line though. But I'm sure we will, cus the government of the moment will want votes in the 905, and inevitably someone will die at Bloor-Yonge as a result.

I have not heard much on YNE, but I feel shovels will be in the ground for OL before YNE. As far as which one opens first, likely YNE will as it is a short extension of an existing line that already has rollign stock for it. I doubt anyone will die over it, but time will tell.

The problem is that all our transit planning is run by politicians, and since downtown isn't seen as being as politically important as the suburbs are, all our transit goes to the suburbs, even when more is needed downtown as well. The only reason we are getting the OL/RL is because it helps commuters in swing ridings in Scarborough, not because it's good for any of the downtown (or downtown-adjacent) neighbourhoods.

I will say though that the OL seems to at least do more for people in the city core than the RL did, in that it at least provides a major east-west subway instead of being a dead end at Osgoode.

Going to Exhibition makes sense. Going through Queen/Osgoode also makes sense. Ending at Eglinton also makes sense. Adding the dip down also makes sense.

The real problem is that generally speaking, most politicians don't ride transit so they don't fully understand what their implications are.

 

[asher__jo]

For most people, a station name is just a name. It could just be numbered according to the date built. I am going from station 4 to Station 106. The routes I need to take are....

Agreed. I prefer station names referencing cross-streets, however duplication quickly becomes a problem with parallel lines. Neighbourhood names are generally a good substitute.

 

[JasonParis]

Minton Place ends at the hillside. The portal could appear on the hillside next to Don Valley Parkway below.

View attachment 275296
From link. A bicycle land and pedestrian walkway could join the bridge at this point, over the hillside.

I wonder if a pedestrian/cycling link across the Don will help to get community buy-in. Or, more likely, they like their little enclave the way it is and don't want a tunnel or any further access period.