Toronto Ontario Line 3 | ?m | ?s

[ARG1]

Bogging down projects in consultations is foolish. Even more foolish is believing everything the government tells you, particularly when tens of billions of your dollars are on the line. We all have a responsibility be mighty suspicious of the government’s motivations, particularly given the level of secrecy here. The fact that nothing meaningful has been disclosed about this $11 Billion project after some 16 months of work is unacceptable, no matter how you slice it.

Oh I absolutely agree with you. At the very least the government needs some level of prior trust before it can be left to its own devices in keeping secrecy. Although based on some things I've heard from insiders, it sounds like there is actually quite a lot of progress being done so I'm willing to give the benefit of the doubt... for now. I just hope that we at the very least get some new information prior to the election (which assuming things are going well, should be the case since that would be the smart move on Doug Ford's part).

 

[p_xavier]

I’d wager that has way more to do with the private interest at play regarding REM. Money motivates like nothing else

No it's not. That's why the QC government proposed Bill 61 to cut the red tape. The STM is caught in an expropriation nightmare with the Blue Line.

Also I believe that public consultations is a massive waste of time, like since when major modifications were done after them? I can't even think of one.

 

[syn]

If I was properly compensated for my property then yes I would. And no, stuff like endless studies and community engagement programs absolutely do slow down construction. Compare the rate at which things are done in Toronto compared to a city like Moscow, where all they do is draw lines on a map and TBMs go vroom. As a result they build 11 stations and 17km of track EVERY YEAR. While I'm not advocating for Moscow levels of authoritarian control, its important to note the difference in speed in which stuff get built when you add a ton of extraneous elements during the planning stage. Also, please stop spreading the nonsense about DRL South being anywhere close to shovel ready. None of the engineering work even began when Ford got into Office.

And what if you weren't?

The speed at which stuff gets built here has little to do with expropriation rules. It's not private citizens and consultations holding things back. It's the government and endless political jockeying.

If Ford was serious about getting something built quickly and properly, he would've went ahead with the DRL South plan, and began planning the DRL North.

If he was serious about consistent long term transit growth the real problem would be addressed. He'd make sure Metrolinx exists as a non-partisan, independent organization with a mandate to plan and build transit based on the advice of transit experts. Instead, he's gone even further to turn it into just another government organization that does what the Conservatives want.

Blaming it on processes in place to protect citizens is the easy way out.

 

[TossYourJacket]

Oh I absolutely agree with you. At the very least the government needs some level of prior trust before it can be left to its own devices in keeping secrecy. Although based on some things I've heard from insiders, it sounds like there is actually quite a lot of progress being done so I'm willing to give the benefit of the doubt... for now. I just hope that we at the very least get some new information prior to the election (which assuming things are going well, should be the case since that would be the smart move on Doug Ford's part).

I think a big issue here is Metrolinx is doing literally everything it can to erode public trust. Screwing over Jane and Finch, the disingenuous business case that ignores the Relief Line North plan they were working on in order to make the Ontario Line look better, the absolute disaster that is Presto, and the lack of responses to questions around expropriations in Leslieville (because if they have actually done their work planning the OL, they should know exactly which properties need expropriation, and what its gonna happen to the community centre and park) to name some examples. Metrolinx has brought this level of distrust upon themselves, and they could remedy it, but they're too busy trying to hide as much as possible from the public as possible, which does not bode well for this project. If they were transparent and honest, issues could be discussed and solutions could be found, but Metrolinx seems to want to do nothing more than ram through a predetermined plan, and screw anyone with concerns.

 

[syn]

No it's not. That's why the QC government proposed Bill 61 to cut the red tape. The STM is caught in an expropriation nightmare with the Blue Line.

Also I believe that public consultations is a massive waste of time, like since when major modifications were done after them? I can't even think of one.

That's kind of the point. No need for major modifications when you build with the community and take their needs into account, instead of keeping them in the dark.

 

[nfitz]

Also I believe that public consultations is a massive waste of time, like since when major modifications were done after them? I can't even think of one.

Lots of examples. The addition of intermediate stations and additional pedestrian crossings to the UPE. I thought the realignment of the Relief Line South down Carlaw was brilliant myself. What about the entire new Ottawa LRT system - how were not those modifications not major? And certainly a lot of minor changes to all sort of projects.

And lots of examples where they failed to take it into account, and paid for it later. Like the 401 re-alignment from Gananoque to Brockville... and the creation of Mirabel.

You use Montreal as an example. The extended closing time of the Deux Montagnes line might have been mitigated better if there was more consultation. And then the design issues with the transfer station to Line 5, which seem to require a whole lot of travel - do you have to come to ground surface? The McGill transfer looks equally as poorly thought out. The lack of connection from Trudeau Airport to Dorval Station/Circle. The lack of connectivity between the REM station north of the TC to the south. And other issues in Montreal ... there seemed to be a failure in consultation with the new hospital at Vendome .... resulting in the primary transit access to the hospital being an existing Metro/Train station right next to it - which they managed to connect to without providing any accessible connection! That kind of problem would have been dealt with, with strong consultation.

 

[officedweller]

And then the design issues with the transfer station to Line 5, which seem to require a whole lot of travel - do you have to come to ground surface? The McGill transfer looks equally as poorly thought out.

I don't know what the connections are for the REM, but for Vancouver's Canada Line, I think the long connection and separate entrances at Waterfront are in part to funnel passengers in separate streams so they can be counted by overhead automated passenger counters (i.e. so Canada Line passengers can be counted separately from Expo Line passengers). Those passenger figures are then used in part to determine compensation to InTransitBC (the Canada Line operator) under the Concession Agreement as well as for other planning purposes. Those counters probably became redundant when faregates were installed.

 

[Allandale25]

Verster reports intense interest in TODs along planned Ontario Line - Daily Commercial News

The next great development corridor in Toronto could be along the new Ontario Line, Metrolinx president and CEO Phil Verster told delegates participating in a recent Canadian Council for Public-Private Partnerships (CCPPP) luncheon webinar. Verster and O

canada.constructconnect.com

And this one mentions the four priority projects:

Province committed to major projects despite transit declines: Mulroney - Daily Commercial News

Despite declining transit ridership since the start of the COVID-19 pandemic, the Ontario government remains resolute in its plans to undertake four major subway projects as a key component of its economic recovery plans, Minister of Transportation Caroli

canada.constructconnect.com

 

[Northern Light]

Verster reports intense interest in TODs along planned Ontario Line - Daily Commercial News

The next great development corridor in Toronto could be along the new Ontario Line, Metrolinx president and CEO Phil Verster told delegates participating in a recent Canadian Council for Public-Private Partnerships (CCPPP) luncheon webinar. Verster and O

canada.constructconnect.com

And this one mentions the four priority projects:

Province committed to major projects despite transit declines: Mulroney - Daily Commercial News

Despite declining transit ridership since the start of the COVID-19 pandemic, the Ontario government remains resolute in its plans to undertake four major subway projects as a key component of its economic recovery plans, Minister of Transportation Caroli

canada.constructconnect.com

Proposals for what?

That is to say, there were already proposals for intensification along much of the O/L route.

Perhaps less so from Cosburn north; but few other areas were bereft of proposals.

To my understanding, the idea here was to get private sector dollars towards building the stations, in exchange for enhanced development permissions.

Given that the choice site along the route were routinely getting hirise approvals before.........

How much density/height could be granted to generate a meaningful contribution toward stations with 150M+ budgets in the core?

I'm not about to get excited that maybe a developer will come along at the Gerrard site and chip in 5M.

The whole process around this is far too opaque.

 

[allengeorge]

“ As part of its listening exercises, Verster said, the government is weighing comments from partners who are suggesting that post-COVID there might be decentralizing of office space, with more people working from home and a change in ridership patterns. But Metrolinx still believes there will be continuing need for the transit projects it has on its agenda, he said.”

Sounds like Metrolinx and the government are at odds about this? Or am I reading too much into this one comment? I guess the truth is: who knows?

I just hope that all four lines are built. It’s kinda ridiculous to me that people are suggesting that this pandemic changes EVERYTHING, FOREVER.

 

[ARG1]

Even if the level of commuting decreases Post-Covid, that doesn't mean the need for transit will be reduced, it just means that the need for transit at peak hours would be stifled. People still need transit to quickly get between places for reasons other than going to work.

 

[p_xavier]

Lots of examples. The addition of intermediate stations and additional pedestrian crossings to the UPE. I thought the realignment of the Relief Line South down Carlaw was brilliant myself. What about the entire new Ottawa LRT system - how were not those modifications not major? And certainly a lot of minor changes to all sort of projects.

And lots of examples where they failed to take it into account, and paid for it later. Like the 401 re-alignment from Gananoque to Brockville... and the creation of Mirabel.

You use Montreal as an example. The extended closing time of the Deux Montagnes line might have been mitigated better if there was more consultation. And then the design issues with the transfer station to Line 5, which seem to require a whole lot of travel - do you have to come to ground surface? The McGill transfer looks equally as poorly thought out. The lack of connection from Trudeau Airport to Dorval Station/Circle. The lack of connectivity between the REM station north of the TC to the south. And other issues in Montreal ... there seemed to be a failure in consultation with the new hospital at Vendome .... resulting in the primary transit access to the hospital being an existing Metro/Train station right next to it - which they managed to connect to without providing any accessible connection! That kind of problem would have been dealt with, with strong consultation.

All that were actually studied for the Montreal context and were dismissed for cost reasons. That's one main issue, people don't think that such ideas were thought off, they did and were dismissed long before presented to the public. The REM would have been a streetcar system if gone with the public recommandations. Actually, the only project I remember being submitted to the results of the audiences was the Mascouche line, which is the worst transit project to have been put in service in the region.

Public input gives this :

 

[Coolstar]

I went on the Ontario Line page on the Metrolinx engage website to check for any updates and there are a few things to note:

Last time, Metrolinx stated that the site of the MSF was unknown despite stating that the IBC mentioning the MSF will be located at Wicksteed Avenue and Beth Nealson Drive. Now it looks like Metrolinx will go forward with the Wicksteed and Beth Nealson location.

Next, someone asked if the line was still on schedule for 2027. Metrolinx noted that the 2019 provincial budget contemplated a completion date as early as 2027. But the actual start of construction and completion date would depend on the consortiums who will bid on the project. So don't expect the line to open in 2027. Unless a miracle happens.

Lastly, Metrolinx mentioned that they would share more details about the line this fall. If so, it looks the Prelimenary Design Buisness Case (PDBC) was pushed back to this fall after Metrolinx stated the PDBC would be released late this summer. However Metrolinx also stated that they would share more information about the project in the next few weeks.

As a result I asked when the PDBC would come out to figure it out once and for all. I'm fairly anxious to know more info about the line and hopefully we can see it as soon as they can.

 

[officedweller]

Thanks for the info!

 

[W. K. Lis]

...

Lastly, Metrolinx mentioned that they would share more details about the line this fall. If so, it looks the Prelimenary Design Buisness Case (PDBC) was pushed back to this fall after Metrolinx stated the PDBC would be released late this summer. However Metrolinx also stated that they would share more information about the project in the next few weeks.
...

That's a l-o-n-g time to transfer from paper napkins to official "blueprints".