afransen
Senior Member
Two patients, one ventilator? Who dies?
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Novel Coronavirus COVID-19 (nCoV-2019)
- Thread starter AlvinofDiaspar
- Start date
lenaitch
Senior Member
Agree but I think the impact will reach lower. The average age of LTC residents is ~85, which means the range reaches down into the high 70s.
Admiral Beez
Superstar
Likely both.
Richard White
Senior Member
That's one of the perils of hospitals. There are no easy answers.
You can't just snuff someone out because they may not survive.
Max Sterling
New Member
How about looking at this issue from a facts perspective? Ontario's website updates the numbers daily:
COVID-19 vaccinations data
Due to technical difficulties, the case rate by vaccination status by age group is not available
As you can see, 60% of ALL covid deaths in Ontario occured in long term care homes. About 650 people under the age of 70 have died to the virus to date which means about 1,350 seniors over the age of 70 have died outside of long term care homes. Now consider that there's ALMOST 3 MILLION SENIORS living in Ontario and you tell me how is it that even in the absolute most vulnerable population that has the highest rate of covid deaths why isn't there tens of thousands of deaths in that age group?
Covid is so lethal that it can barely kill even the oldest people outside of long term homes, but we need to take unprecendented measures to stop it? Really?
And again almost 300 people die EVERY SINGLE DAY in Ontario of various causes long before covid arrived and yet how come we never stopped society from functioning to try and prevent all those deaths? Three days of deaths in any given normal year accounts for all the under 70 covid deaths and about 2 1/2 weeks of daily deaths accounts for EVERY SINGLE covid death in Ontario to date. Again I ask why is dying by covid so much more serious and important than dying by any other cause? To me the simple fact that covid is significantly contagious doesn't justify all the measures to stop it when you look at all the data.
As for preventing hospitals 'from being overwhelmed', maybe we could do that by not continually telling people to stay indoors? We know that transmission outdoors is less likely and also that healthy people are more able to fight off the infection and suffer less from it. Don't you think that's significant part of the reason why even though during the summer when many times more people were out and about, the number of hospitalizations and deaths were still very low? Do you not think that's because people were staying active and keeping their health up so that even if they do get the virus, they don't get sick enough to require hospital care?
So why not allow people to go out and stay active instead of keeping them indoors and having their health decline? And this doesn't even include all the mental and emotional health issues that many people suffer from all these restrictions. Somehow in caring only about stopping the virus so much, many people especially our politicians and 'medical experts' have completely lost sight of all the damage its caused to so many people and in so many faucets of our society and whether all of it is actually worth it.
Its like buying a car. As much as you want a certain car, at some point the cost outweighs the benefit of you buying and enjoying that vehicle and you say its not worth it and walk away from the purchase. To me the cost of taking all these measures to prevent covid deaths that predominately happen among long term care patients and the sick isn't worth all the damage we've caused to ourselves.
Hospitals aren’t going to be snuffing out patients. But they may well have to make tough decisions about how best to allocate scarce resources.
Max Sterling
New Member
We live with the fact that people die everyday for one reason or another and yet we've never shut down society to try and prevent those deaths until now. A contagious yet not very lethal virus that barely affects anyone with even decent health isn't a good enough reason to do all the damage we've done to ourselves so far just to stop it.
Why are you so afraid of differing opinions from yours? Why must we all conform to the same thinking and those who don't 'need to leave'? What a world we live in where diversity of thought and having open, civilized discussions on topics is seen as evil and offensive. 'I don't like what you're saying. You need to either follow the herd or leave'.
TheKingEast
Senior Member
Just have to SMH at the idiocy displayed the last year with this virus.
afransen
Senior Member
We know what careless containment leads to: we saw it in Northern Italy, NYC, and Wuhan early on. Bodies piling up in refrigerated trucks. Patients not receiving care because the resources aren't there. LTC residents not being cared for. Exponentials care not what you want. You can moan about how the price we paid is not worth it based on the lives lost so far. Had we done nothing we'd have mass graves.How about looking at this issue from a facts perspective? Ontario's website updates the numbers daily:
COVID-19 vaccinations data
Due to technical difficulties, the case rate by vaccination status by age group is not availablecovid-19.ontario.ca
As you can see, 60% of ALL covid deaths in Ontario occured in long term care homes. About 650 people under the age of 70 have died to the virus to date which means about 1,350 seniors over the age of 70 have died outside of long term care homes. Now consider that there's ALMOST 3 MILLION SENIORS living in Ontario and you tell me how is it that even in the absolute most vulnerable population that has the highest rate of covid deaths why isn't there tens of thousands of deaths in that age group?
Covid is so lethal that it can barely kill even the oldest people outside of long term homes, but we need to take unprecendented measures to stop it? Really?
And again almost 300 people die EVERY SINGLE DAY in Ontario of various causes long before covid arrived and yet how come we never stopped society from functioning to try and prevent all those deaths? Three days of deaths in any given normal year accounts for all the under 70 covid deaths and about 2 1/2 weeks of daily deaths accounts for EVERY SINGLE covid death in Ontario to date. Again I ask why is dying by covid so much more serious and important than dying by any other cause? To me the simple fact that covid is significantly contagious doesn't justify all the measures to stop it when you look at all the data.
As for preventing hospitals 'from being overwhelmed', maybe we could do that by not continually telling people to stay indoors? We know that transmission outdoors is less likely and also that healthy people are more able to fight off the infection and suffer less from it. Don't you think that's significant part of the reason why even though during the summer when many times more people were out and about, the number of hospitalizations and deaths were still very low? Do you not think that's because people were staying active and keeping their health up so that even if they do get the virus, they don't get sick enough to require hospital care?
So why not allow people to go out and stay active instead of keeping them indoors and having their health decline? And this doesn't even include all the mental and emotional health issues that many people suffer from all these restrictions. Somehow in caring only about stopping the virus so much, many people especially our politicians and 'medical experts' have completely lost sight of all the damage its caused to so many people and in so many faucets of our society and whether all of it is actually worth it.
Its like buying a car. As much as you want a certain car, at some point the cost outweighs the benefit of you buying and enjoying that vehicle and you say its not worth it and walk away from the purchase. To me the cost of taking all these measures to prevent covid deaths that predominately happen among long term care patients and the sick isn't worth all the damage we've caused to ourselves.
Admiral Beez
Superstar
Like most viruses, it will die down naturally as those most susceptible expire whilst those either vaccinated or recovered maintain or return to regular life.
Richard White
Senior Member
I can see it being a Hepatitis style vaccination where you need a booster every 10-20 years.
afransen
Senior Member
There's a decent chance we'll need it more frequently (every 1-2 years).
Towered
Senior Member
What's the reward for misspeling 'behaviour'?
These people have done more of a disservice to their own calls to action in regards to the pandemic than any conspiracy theorist army could possibly hope.
What a joke.
It's doubly disappointing that people who clearly are far more intelligent and educated than the average person still possess such a galling lack of common sense. You'd think such accomplished members of society would be more aware of the optics of certain actions and the heightened scrutiny around them. It makes my head spin. Perfect examples of people with academic smarts utterly lacking in street smarts.
Towered
Senior Member
96 is a great run though, covid or not.
Northern Light
Superstar
This is what made it to cabinet? Sigh!
From the report, apparently Ontario's cabinet is considering the following new 'restrictions'.
Lets address these shall we:
Exactly zero on factories/meat packing/food processing
Exactly zero on restricting patients/LTC residents per room
Exactly zero on limiting healthcare staff to a single floor or unit, emergencies excepted.
***
If accurate this represents a continuation of an enormous policy fail.
From the report, apparently Ontario's cabinet is considering the following new 'restrictions'.
- Gathering limits reduced to as few as five people.
- Shorter hours for essential businesses, which would involve earlier closures and later openings.
- Limits on construction activity, but those limits would still allow essential construction to continue. Essential construction would be defined as work on health care and critical infrastructure, as well as residential buildings.
- A requirement that no employees would be allowed in offices unless they are deemed essential.
Lets address these shall we:
- Gathering limits reduced to as few as five people.
- Shorter hours for essential businesses, which would involve earlier closures and later openings.
- Limits on construction activity, but those limits would still allow essential construction to continue. Essential construction would be defined as work on health care and critical infrastructure, as well as residential buildings.
- A requirement that no employees would be allowed in offices unless they are deemed essential.
Exactly zero on factories/meat packing/food processing
Exactly zero on restricting patients/LTC residents per room
Exactly zero on limiting healthcare staff to a single floor or unit, emergencies excepted.
***
If accurate this represents a continuation of an enormous policy fail.