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North American union

MisterF

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We don't need to be as integrated as the EU countries, we just need to open up the borders so that crossing the border is as easy as traveling from Germany to Austria, i.e. you drive right through. Our economies are already as integrated as they need to be for now. I think everyone is overestimating the Americans' economic clout. The United States is knee deep in red ink from the Iraq war. Really, the only things we'd have to give up to get an uncontrolled border are surrendering the protection of our borders to the Americans, and possibly immigration policy.

Personally, I would have no problem whatsoever with Americans taking over responsibility for the ports of entry into Canada. I know a lot of people would see that as taking away some of our sovereignty, which it is, but it would make everything easier for everyone. We might not do the same thing on the Mexican side, but they could, and then the Americans could watch the Mexican border with, erm, whatever is on the south side of Mexico.
"The only things we'd have to give up"?? Those are some pretty huge things! Even if handing over our ports, airports, and immigration were a good idea, do you really think it'd stop there? It's a terrible idea - we're doing just fine the way it is now. The EU is the only place I know of that has open borders, and even there some countries are staying separate. It's not appropriate here.

The main reason the Ambassador Bridge has such huge lineups is because traffic goes through city streets and lots of traffic lights on the way there. That's getting fixed with the new bridge.

I also question this desire for Canada to be a part of something bigger. I don't see how that would benefit us at all. Smaller countries like Singapore and Australia are thriving and they're not part of anything bigger.
 

Mot

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I do not want Canada hitching it's wagon (any more than it already has) to the foreign policy disasters of the US.
In addition the US is going into a pretty bad economic decline due to the disasterous domestic policies over the last 8 years.

Also you can kiss your healthcare goodbye if there is a North American Union. Big Pharma and Medical-for-profit Corporations rule healthcare in the US and they will kill the system here.
 

Coruscanti Cognoscente

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I don't see how healthcare or foreign policy has anything to do with this. Countries in Europe retain their individual identities. People don't even think of the EU as a nation/state/country/superstate. It's a union, but it's to promote the European economy and provides a counterweight to the United States' economy. How easier travel between the United States and Canada could be bad for anyone is beyond me. The leaders of the European Union had VISION, which is clearly lacking in North America.
 

Hydrogen

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Europe had to do something to stop all those wars. Being dependent upon one and other economically made sense.
 

MisterF

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I don't see how healthcare or foreign policy has anything to do with this. Countries in Europe retain their individual identities. People don't even think of the EU as a nation/state/country/superstate. It's a union, but it's to promote the European economy and provides a counterweight to the United States' economy. How easier travel between the United States and Canada could be bad for anyone is beyond me. The leaders of the European Union had VISION, which is clearly lacking in North America.
Please explain how having borders between countries makes North America lack vision.

Again, Europe isn't dominated by a single megapower the way North America is. It has five medium size powers that balance each other out. Here it would be one country taking control of another. What you're suggesting makes as much sense as Finland opening its borders to Russia.
 

jn_12

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We don't need to be as integrated as the EU countries, we just need to open up the borders so that crossing the border is as easy as traveling from Germany to Austria, i.e. you drive right through. Our economies are already as integrated as they need to be for now. I think everyone is overestimating the Americans' economic clout. The United States is knee deep in red ink from the Iraq war. Really, the only things we'd have to give up to get an uncontrolled border are surrendering the protection of our borders to the Americans, and possibly immigration policy.

Personally, I would have no problem whatsoever with Americans taking over responsibility for the ports of entry into Canada. I know a lot of people would see that as taking away some of our sovereignty, which it is, but it would make everything easier for everyone. We might not do the same thing on the Mexican side, but they could, and then the Americans could watch the Mexican border with, erm, whatever is on the south side of Mexico.

Do really want an open border that makes the flooding of guns into this country even easier? Most guns that end up in our cities are from the US. Just think of how many more we'd see if there was no way to stop the trafficking? I'd say that's a pretty good reason to keep the borders patrolled.

How about the insane security we'd have at our ports if the Americans took them over? Have you tried passing through security in an American airport? Imagine if you had to add an hour to your travel time between Toronto and Edmonton just because of American paranoia. Sure, you'd save 10 minutes crossing the border by car, but is that worth it?

Also, how about the economies of border towns? Do we want Canadians to cross the border to do their grocery shopping because of cheaper prices and no duty? I'm sure towns like Fort Erie would love to see their customers going to Tops.


To be honest, there's little benefit from an open border. Sure people can quote numbers where time spent waiting is costing businesses money, but that's about the only reason for promoting an open border.

And, the EU isn't all it's cracked up to be. Countries are struggling because the open border is shifting immigration patterns, where richer countries like Germany are being flooded by people from Eastern Europe. They're also seeing things like people working in German but living in the Czech Republic and it's causing tons of problems. I know I don't want poor and uneducated Americans coming up here to take advantage of our better minimum wage and standard of living.
 

whitestone7

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Absolutely laughable

We don't need to be as integrated as the EU countries, we just need to open up the borders so that crossing the border is as easy as traveling from Germany to Austria, i.e. you drive right through. Our economies are already as integrated as they need to be for now. I think everyone is overestimating the Americans' economic clout. The United States is knee deep in red ink from the Iraq war. Really, the only things we'd have to give up to get an uncontrolled border are surrendering the protection of our borders to the Americans, and possibly immigration policy.

Personally, I would have no problem whatsoever with Americans taking over responsibility for the ports of entry into Canada. I know a lot of people would see that as taking away some of our sovereignty, which it is, but it would make everything easier for everyone. We might not do the same thing on the Mexican side, but they could, and then the Americans could watch the Mexican border with, erm, whatever is on the south side of Mexico.

Hi Coruscanti Cognoscente:

Welcome to the agitator from Georgia

How are things in the United States?

Your i.p. says you are from Atlanta Georgia

Question for ya?

Why are you lobbying so hard to have the United States to control our (Canadian) borders, in your own words that i have quoted, this push for the U.S. to control Canada's resources and access to a disastrous common market which will only benefit the U.S., amounts to a loss of sovereignty for us in Canada...

If you in the United States have followed a skewed lifestyle of consumerism and warmongering, what makes you think in your wildest dreams we (in Canada) want to participate

Yes some of our politicians think it's cool to mimic the United States
But the people they don't represent don't want any part of it and we will vote them out

I can understand the politics of grabbing resources, the United States is doing that around the world - but at some point don't you think that people are going to stand up to your national bullying and say NO NOT HERE

We here in Canada pride ourselves on our sovereign nation , and if you in the United States do not have pride in being independent, then please leave the cancer where it is and don't bother us here

Your founding fathers did not create your country ( The United States ) to be something you can just give away just because you are listening to some lame rhetoric on how good it would be to travel

They would be rolling in their graves

A proud red-blooded Canadian (ME) will resist you to my dieing breath....

Why you might ask?

Because Canada is Canadian and the border between us (canada) and you (American) is the first thing thing that makes me Canadian

If you don't want to be American and have control of America for your future generations, that is your concern

But we here in Canada want to pass on a proud heritage to our son's and daughters that is not controlled by International Money and Corporations

You see a LOT of us up here have not sold out as you seem to have

Just my two cents worth

Proud to be CANADIAN

http://whitestone7.110mb.com/index.html
 

Coruscanti Cognoscente

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Hi Coruscanti Cognoscente:

Welcome to the agitator from Georgia

How are things in the United States?

Your i.p. says you are from Atlanta Georgia

Question for ya?

Why are you lobbying so hard to have the United States to control our (Canadian) borders, in your own words that i have quoted, this push for the U.S. to control Canada's resources and access to a disastrous common market which will only benefit the U.S., amounts to a loss of sovereignty for us in Canada...

If you in the United States have followed a skewed lifestyle of consumerism and warmongering, what makes you think in your wildest dreams we (in Canada) want to participate

Yes some of our politicians think it's cool to mimic the United States
But the people they don't represent don't want any part of it and we will vote them out

I can understand the politics of grabbing resources, the United States is doing that around the world - but at some point don't you think that people are going to stand up to your national bullying and say NO NOT HERE

We here in Canada pride ourselves on our sovereign nation , and if you in the United States do not have pride in being independent, then please leave the cancer where it is and don't bother us here

Your founding fathers did not create your country ( The United States ) to be something you can just give away just because you are listening to some lame rhetoric on how good it would be to travel

They would be rolling in their graves

A proud red-blooded Canadian (ME) will resist you to my dieing breath....

Why you might ask?

Because Canada is Canadian and the border between us (canada) and you (American) is the first thing thing that makes me Canadian

If you don't want to be American and have control of America for your future generations, that is your concern

But we here in Canada want to pass on a proud heritage to our son's and daughters that is not controlled by International Money and Corporations

You see a LOT of us up here have not sold out as you seem to have

Just my two cents worth

Proud to be CANADIAN

http://whitestone7.110mb.com/index.html

Hi Mr. 2 Posts.

Ask anyone who's paid any attention to what I've said over the past year or two on this board and they'll tell you I'm not an American. I haven't even visited the USA since a family trip to Florida in 1992. That said, I don't know where you supposedly saw my IP address, but I can certainly tell you I'm not in Atlanta, Georgia. IP addresses aren't even very exact. They would never tell you I'm here in Mississauga.

As for the rest of your post, well, I just have nothing to say about it and it speaks for itself.
 

whitestone7

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apology

Coruscanti Cognoscente:

Please accept my apology i got it wrong

I did not follow my own rule of properly researching the forum

I visited your website later and realized my mistake

However - yes the rest of the post does speak for itself

I am adamantly opposed to any integration with the U.S. for a whole bunch of important reasons

whitestone7


 

michaelpelzfox

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I'm all for a political union with the United States. Like it or not U.S. policies have significant impact on the lives of Canadians. Why don't we want to influence these policies from the inside?

One of my first principles is people should be able to live anywhere on the planet they choose. Political boundaries as we know them should, from an idealistic perspective, disappear as medieval kingdoms disappeared. The world is changing and organizations like the EU represent a new generation of thinking beyond the politics of when both Canada and the U.S. were formed.

We are 30 million people sitting atop 300 million. For anyone wishing to attain the highest level of their given profession, area of research, or talent, the choice is stark as to where opportunities lie. I'm not saying America is wonderful and Canada's not, it's just numbers and what those population numbers mean.

Finally, we don't have to be a state like the others. I just think there should be some strong political bodies (as there are already loose committees and working groups) where our voice in North American policy making is more effective and permanent. Many of the most pressing issues, particularly the environment, are naturally cross border issues.
 

Hydrogen

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I'm all for a political union with the United States. Like it or not U.S. policies have significant impact on the lives of Canadians. Why don't we want to influence these policies from the inside?

Canada is hardly homogenous in terms of political opinion, so that "inside" influence would be diluted out in such a union.

One of my first principles is people should be able to live anywhere on the planet they choose.

Except that world does not exist.

We are 30 million people sitting atop 300 million. For anyone wishing to attain the highest level of their given profession, area of research, or talent, the choice is stark as to where opportunities lie.

I looked below me and I do not appear to be sitting on anyone. Going beyond this, are there no worthwhile opportunities in Canada? Can one not attain the highest levels of their "given" profession in this country?

A voice in continental policy-making is one thing; selling out the entire country means giving up that voice.
 

MisterF

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The border doesn't prevent people from seeking opportunity in the United States if that's what they want. The fact that American policy decisions affect Canada is all the more reason to keep our independence.
 

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