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Metrolinx: Sheppard East LRT (In Design)

There is some truth in this statement. But I think the main difference between Sheppard LRT and the LRT systems in Calgary or Edmonton (and the planned Ottawa LRT) is that LRT lines in all those cities go through the CBD. Even though those systems have on-street sections, they function like a light metro, getting not only walk-in riders but also those transferring from buses or driving to an LRT station. Since they pass through the CBD, decent demand level is guaranteed.

In contrast, Sheppard East LRT is not going to serve any major destinations. Don Mills Stn is just a transfer point for the majority of riders. UofT Scarborough (if the line goes there) and STC (even if the line passed through it) are destinations but they are no match for CBD.

So, TTC and / or Metrolinx might be concerned that Sheppard East LRT is not going to get many riders transferring from buses (and none from park-and-ride) anyway; even if it is designed as a fast trunk line. Probably, that's why they gear the design towards a streetcar line in dedicated lanes, but with rather frequent stop spacing. That way, they can at least save some operating costs by not having to run parallel bus service. I doubt that it is a good idea; but they have their constraints and must address them.

With all door loading there is no reason whatsoever that the LRT should not replace the bus service along the same route. It makes for a more efficient transit model and the increase travel time will be unnoticeable. It will encourage consistent development along the route to support the development of a neighbourhood rather than nodal development at major intersections. It will make a better city.

The only thing we should be worrying about with travel times here is if they're going to give the LRVs full priority at signalized intersections. This will be what will make or break this line, not a couple of stations.

On streets like Spadina and St Clair where more people use transit that drive cars, full signal priority is not given.. I just hope the wind blows in another direction when this train pulls up.
 
Quote Originally Posted by andrewpmk View Post
This is not "LRT". This is the exact same thing that they built on St. Clair, with tiny platforms for stops and stops at every minor intersection, except it has room to couple two streetcars together for higher capacity (which they did decades ago). St. Clair will be getting the new streetcars anyway which are basically same as the "Transit City" ones except for different gauge. The so-called "LRT" on Sheppard is vastly inferior to Calgary, Edmonton, Ottawa, and Los Angeles and needs to go back to the drawing board.

The Calgary LRT is actually pretty awful. It is incredibly slow through the CBD, it doesn't even seem to have signal priority. And the separated ROW destroys streetscapes and divides neighbourhoods. The downtown transit mall looks horrible! Well, I don't blame them, the street wasn't much to look at before anyway. But it would never work in Toronto.

Where Toronto's LRT will go through neighbourhoods that are at all downtown-y, it will be underground. Elsewhere, it is being designed to enhance the streetscape, not destroy it, while giving people a comfortable and reliable ride. It seems like a much better way to go.
 
This will serve as the beginning of a paradigm shift for Scarborough. Making it far more attractive than other areas in the GTA for residential and office development. Mississauga will really lose speed to Scarborough in the coming years because it is not building nearly as much transit.

26 km of LRT is not to be downplayed in the Scarborough context. It really changes everything in terms of how the average Scarborough resident who uses transit, gets around. It creates development nodes at very convenient points for redevelopment: Golden Mile, Markham & Sheppard (perfect spot for a more urban Scarborough City Centre), and Kennedy Station. With various connections to GO lines at Kennedy and Agincourt GO stations.

This is not a small feat.

Nice boosterific copy there, but everyone's reaction to this is "Oh, please."

Most of the transit we're building in Scarborough is buses on rails and it's costing us billions of dollars. Sheppard east of Agincourt, Eglinton west of Kennedy, and the Progress bus are some of the lower ridership corridors in Scarborough, largely running through industrial land and/or avoiding concentrations of people. There's new building developments in Scarborough every year, but anything built after this point will surely be undeniable proof of the miraculous transformative power of light rail, right? Yet just like infill along Lawrence, the Bridlewood Mall complex, or condos at STC, what we will actually see is the miraculous transformative power of rezoning and a demand for square footage in a growing city. Watch out Mississauga, taking transit in one quarter of Scarborough is now only 3.2 times as long as driving instead of 3.5 times!

It's not a small feat, it's a complete waste of time and money that will be of no benefit for transit users in Scarborough.
 
Ok, the Eglinton LRT has 5km within Scarborough. Sheppard has 12km. The RT with the extension is another 9km of increased and new transit connections. This comes to a total of 26 km of Light Rail Transit for Scarborough alone. With new Transfer nodes at Sheppard Ave and Markham Road, and at Kennedy stations.

This system will create new links to buses in the neighbourhoods of Malvern, Agincourt, Centennial College area, Scarborough Centre, Clairlea, Golden Mile, Highland Creek, Tam O Shanter, Dorset Park, Bendale and even neighbourhoods not directly on the lines such as Rouge Valley and Morningside Heights.

This will serve as the beginning of a paradigm shift for Scarborough. Making it far more attractive than other areas in the GTA for residential and office development. Mississauga will really lose speed to Scarborough in the coming years because it is not building nearly as much transit.

26 km of LRT is not to be downplayed in the Scarborough context. It really changes everything in terms of how the average Scarborough resident who uses transit, gets around. It creates development nodes at very convenient points for redevelopment: Golden Mile, Markham & Sheppard (perfect spot for a more urban Scarborough City Centre), and Kennedy Station. With various connections to GO lines at Kennedy and Agincourt GO stations.

This is not a small feat.

You're forgetting a very crucial point...

None of it besides the RT is RAPID TRANSIT
Forget about the technology (LRT vs subway)

Billions for a streetcar line is a shameful and inefficient waste of taxpayer money. At that price they could have explore other options

-Elevated and trench whenever possible
-Larger stop pacing with parallel bus service so that the LRT reaches subway speed even at the surface.

As is, Scarborough got screwed on the way the LRT will be operated below Rapid transit speed

Ontario taxpayer got screwed for paying so much money so in the end, it's just another St.Clair. The price tag ABSOLUTELY DOES NOT justify what they're building and the way they will operate it.

Wasn't it supposed to be 120Km of LRT for 12B? The cost just exploded and anyone thinking that it will be on budget and on time are dreaming. Even the TTC doesn't buy Metrolinx schedule
 
Nice boosterific copy there, but everyone's reaction to this is "Oh, please."

Most of the transit we're building in Scarborough is buses on rails and it's costing us billions of dollars. Sheppard east of Agincourt, Eglinton west of Kennedy, and the Progress bus are some of the lower ridership corridors in Scarborough, largely running through industrial land and/or avoiding concentrations of people. There's new building developments in Scarborough every year, but anything built after this point will surely be undeniable proof of the miraculous transformative power of light rail, right? Yet just like infill along Lawrence, the Bridlewood Mall complex, or condos at STC, what we will actually see is the miraculous transformative power of rezoning and a demand for square footage in a growing city. Watch out Mississauga, taking transit in one quarter of Scarborough is now only 3.2 times as long as driving instead of 3.5 times!

It's not a small feat, it's a complete waste of time and money that will be of no benefit for transit users in Scarborough.

Even if this was a single length legacy streetcar route in a right of way this would be a monumental change for this busy suburban corridor in capacity, transit priority, and time of travel. But it's not. It's far more than that because of the type of LRV that will be used. And it's reflected in transit capacity and speed of travel whether you decide to ignore the facts or not.

Sheppard east of Agincourt does not run through industrial lands and I'm not sure what gave you this impression considering your username. It runs through the south side of Malvern. If you took the 85 Sheppard East, which I'm assuming you don't considering your ignorant posts, you'd know that the bus is packed during AM rush before even getting to Morningside heading westbound. You'd also know that Sheppard Avenue East from Markham to Brimley is gridlock especially during the AM rush.

If you knew as much as you think you know about Scarborough you'd know that the 116 Morningside, one of Scarborough's busiest routes, would feed heavily into this route, giving people an alternative to the long ride to Kennedy station. You'd know that the 133 Neilson, 134 Progress, the 131 Nugget, the 132 Milner, the 102 Markham would probably all see route changes rerouted to Markham and Sheppard station.

These routes are to encourage development and provide connections to areas of Scarborough that are exceptionally far from high order transit. They will relieve some of the busiest routes in Scarborough (116 Morningside, 85 Sheppard East, 35 Finch East).

The Eglinton Line through Scarborough will really lead development through a relatively big box-industrial area. It will provide an alternative for those heading west from Scarborough that are heading Midtown as opposed to downtown and this connection will encourage development in several nodes, especially between Mt Pleasant and Allen Road.

Hahaha, you're pretty funny. The entire old city of Toronto was built around Light Rail lines. So deny the "transformative power" of LRT if you will. But it won't get you anywhere, you'd only be lying to yourself.

Connectivity is the word. We need to build a network, not just routes. It's just that type of planning that left us with the Yonge-Bloor fiasco. Finch East will eventually get it's time to shine, but for now, it's Sheppard's time.

You need to ask yourself three questions about this corridor:
1. Are enough people traveling to North York city centre to justify the elevated cost of grade separation. The answer is no.
2. Is the corridor dense enough to support a higher order of transit. The answer is no.
3. Do we want to build an efficient model of transit? If the answer is yes, this is the perfect solution. If you want a subway lobby for a DRL up to Sheppard. Now that's something to argue for.
 
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You're forgetting a very crucial point...

None of it besides the RT is RAPID TRANSIT
Forget about the technology (LRT vs subway)

Billions for a streetcar line is a shameful and inefficient waste of taxpayer money. At that price they could have explore other options

-Elevated and trench whenever possible
-Larger stop pacing with parallel bus service so that the LRT reaches subway speed even at the surface.

As is, Scarborough got screwed on the way the LRT will be operated below Rapid transit speed

Ontario taxpayer got screwed for paying so much money so in the end, it's just another St.Clair. The price tag ABSOLUTELY DOES NOT justify what they're building and the way they will operate it.

Wasn't it supposed to be 120Km of LRT for 12B? The cost just exploded and anyone thinking that it will be on budget and on time are dreaming. Even the TTC doesn't buy Metrolinx schedule

And St. Clair is just soooooooo bad. Oh the humanity!
 
Ok, the Eglinton LRT has 5km within Scarborough. Sheppard has 12km. The RT with the extension is another 9km of increased and new transit connections. This comes to a total of 26 km of Light Rail Transit for Scarborough alone. With new Transfer nodes at Sheppard Ave and Markham Road, and at Kennedy stations.

The funded part of RT extension (McCowan to Sheppard / Progress) is only 5 km long, not 9.

Sheppard LRT will be useful only for those who live near Sheppard, and the Scarborough part of Eglinton will be mostly useful for those who live near Eglinton.

The majority of existing transit users in Scarborough will not see improvements in their trip time or comfort.

This system will create new links to buses in the neighbourhoods of Malvern, Agincourt, Centennial College area, Scarborough Centre, Clairlea, Golden Mile, Highland Creek, Tam O Shanter, Dorset Park, Bendale and even neighbourhoods not directly on the lines such as Rouge Valley and Morningside Heights.

This will serve as the beginning of a paradigm shift for Scarborough. Making it far more attractive than other areas in the GTA for residential and office development. Mississauga will really lose speed to Scarborough in the coming years because it is not building nearly as much transit.

26 km of LRT is not to be downplayed in the Scarborough context. It really changes everything in terms of how the average Scarborough resident who uses transit, gets around. It creates development nodes at very convenient points for redevelopment: Golden Mile, Markham & Sheppard (perfect spot for a more urban Scarborough City Centre), and Kennedy Station. With various connections to GO lines at Kennedy and Agincourt GO stations.

This is not a small feat.

We'll see about that. Some densification might occur in Golden Mile, and on Sheppard between Don Mills and Kennedy. I doubt that the eastern part of the Sheppard LRT route will be an appealing area for densification, since it is so far from all major destinations in the city.
 
With all door loading there is no reason whatsoever that the LRT should not replace the bus service along the same route. It makes for a more efficient transit model and the increase travel time will be unnoticeable.

There are always multiple design choices, and trade-offs associated with either choice.

You can build a line with close stop spacing, that's very good for local trips but not much help for those who have to travel long distance. Or, you can build a fast line with limited stops, that's a significant help for long-distance riders but not as good for local trips. However, you can't build a line that serves both purposes well.

Btw, how do you define "unnoticeable" increase of travel time? IMO, 5 min or less is insignificant; but if a reduction of 10 or 15 min can be achieved, that option should at least be considered.

It will encourage consistent development along the route to support the development of a neighbourhood rather than nodal development at major intersections. It will make a better city.

That concept was designed and tested in situations when a medium-size city builds its first LRT line through the core. Obviously, every LRT stop becomes a focal point of development, as there is no competition from other nodes.

The same concept won't necessarily work in a suburb of a large city, where all major destinations are located outside that suburb, and many riders travel long distances. It will work only if there are a lot of source /destination pairs in the vicinity of that LRT line.

The only thing we should be worrying about with travel times here is if they're going to give the LRVs full priority at signalized intersections. This will be what will make or break this line, not a couple of stations.

On streets like Spadina and St Clair where more people use transit that drive cars, full signal priority is not given.. I just hope the wind blows in another direction when this train pulls up.

Spadina and St Clair lines work well, because they are short and very well integrated with the rest of the network. Residents can take a short streetcar ride, then transfer to subway or a surface route and quickly reach their destination. In case of Spadina, many destinations are even served by the same line.

In contrast, the majority of Sheppard LRT riders will have to take a long ride to Don Mills, and then continue their long trip on the subway.
 
The entire old city of Toronto was built around Light Rail lines.

Those lines were quite popular; it does not mean the entire city was built around them. If they did not exist, people would use other means of getting around; buses, horses, just walking. The city would still exist.

So deny the "transformative power" of LRT if you will. But it won't get you anywhere, you'd only be lying to yourself.

"Lying to yourself" is choosing one tool that is useful / successful under certain conditions, and believing that it is a magic bullet that can work in every situation.
 
Ontario taxpayer got screwed for paying so much money so in the end, it's just another St.Clair.
Given that everyone seems to agree that the St. Clair LRT is an unequivocal success, other than the one rail underpass that needs a rebuild, and a few people from outside the neighbourhood who don't seem to actually be there.

It's not like Sheppard East is costing the $billiions that a subway would cost. And yet it's giving much of the time savings that a subway would give you. And gives more of a time savings for many of the people, as the Sheppard Subway would only extend 5 km to Agincourt (just east of Kennedy) before crossing south of the 401, compared to the 14 km that will be served the the LRT.

The price tag ABSOLUTELY DOES NOT justify what they're building and the way they will operate it.
That may be your opinion, but it's hardly an absolute. Many would say your opinion is wrong. Based on the predicted road traffic in 2031, we have to build something extensive to move people. The Sheppard LRT will easily move as many people in rush-hour, as a 5-lane expressway. What else would you suggest we build instead?
 
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Those lines were quite popular; it does not mean the entire city was built around them. If they did not exist, people would use other means of getting around; buses, horses, just walking. The city would still exist.



"Lying to yourself" is choosing one tool that is useful / successful under certain conditions, and believing that it is a magic bullet that can work in every situation.

To call them "quite popular" is a gross understatement. They created the same corridors that exist today throughout old Toronto. And it's convenient that streets that have lost their light rail connections have also lost their vitality. (see Dupont, & Rogers Rd)

Different forms of transit operate differently in different contexts. Even if this line was built identical to St. Clair, it would operate much differently because the blocks are so much further apart. You guys are arguing about mere seconds when it comes to the extra stations. You propose grade separation when there is no case to do so in the suburban context. And you undermine the intensification potential of light rail which has been proven through our own history.

"The city would still exist."

Of course the city would still exist. Nobody said it would cease to exist. But it's how the city would exist. In what way people would travel, and how our cities would develop.

The truth is that full signal priority and large LRVs are sufficient in the Sheppard context. As the corridor develops throughout our lifetime we can extend the Sheppard subway east as we see fit.
 
Sheppard LRT will be useful only for those who live near Sheppard, and the Scarborough part of Eglinton will be mostly useful for those who live near Eglinton. The majority of existing transit users in Scarborough will not see improvements in their trip time or comfort.

To add to that, Sheppard and Eglinton in Scarborough will be exactly like St.Clair. People on North-South bus route don't get off at St.Clair to take the subway. They got straight to the Bloor line.

They rather stay on the bus to Bloor than get off at St.Clair and take the streetcar East to St.Clair West or Yonge St. Just look at the Dufferin bus.

The most obvious example is the intersection at Bathurst and St.Clair. The subway is a 5 minute walk for the bus stop but people rather stay on the bus to Bathurst Station than walk 5 minutes to St.Clair West. St.Clair serves only people living near St.Clair (I use to live there)

Scarborough won't be any different. People will bypass Sheppard and Eglinton to make it to Bloor. That's why Metrolinx ridership showed that Eglinton buried would have doubled the ridership on the line and now, it will only be half. Why? Because it won't be Rapid Transit.
 
To add to that, Sheppard and Eglinton in Scarborough will be exactly like St.Clair. People on North-South bus route don't get off at St.Clair to take the subway. They got straight to the Bloor line.

They rather stay on the bus to Bloor than get off at St.Clair and take the streetcar East to St.Clair West or Yonge St. Just look at the Dufferin bus.

The most obvious example is the intersection at Bathurst and St.Clair. The subway is a 5 minute walk for the bus stop but people rather stay on the bus to Bathurst Station than walk 5 minutes to St.Clair West. St.Clair serves only people living near St.Clair (I use to live there)

Scarborough won't be any different. People will bypass Sheppard and Eglinton to make it to Bloor. That's why Metrolinx ridership showed that Eglinton buried would have doubled the ridership on the line and now, it will only be half. Why? Because it won't be Rapid Transit.

I deliberately get use and get off the Weston bus to use the St. Clair streetcar to get to and from downtown. Unfortunately, the Weston bus is slow, especially as it nears Rogers Road and Black Creek Drive because of the congestion.

I wish the St. Clair streetcar went to Jane Street or Scarlett Road, but it doesn't. If it did, I would use it from Jane Street.

When the Eglinton Crosstown opens to Jane Street, I would be one of several actual transit users to use it from its terminal in the west end. Especially, to bypass the congestion on Weston Road.
 

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