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Metrolinx: Sheppard East LRT (In Design)

ssiguy2

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The Calgary LRT is actually pretty awful. It is incredibly slow through the CBD, it doesn't even seem to have signal priority. And the separated ROW destroys streetscapes and divides neighbourhoods. The downtown transit mall looks horrible! Well, I don't blame them, the street wasn't much to look at before anyway. But it would never work in Toronto.

Where Toronto's LRT will go through neighbourhoods that are at all downtown-y, it will be underground. Elsewhere, it is being designed to enhance the streetscape, not destroy it, while giving people a comfortable and reliable ride. It seems like a much better way to go.

While it's true Calgary" LRT is not very fast in the core itself, getting downtown is fast and reliable. Unlike so-called "Transitcity", Calgary puts it's LRT ROW with complete priority..........you don't wait for cars but they wait for you via barrier railway crossings like commuter rail. Also Calgary's core LRT plan was designed to be more of a short term solution.

Calgary put an emphasis on developing the length and bredth of the system and focused it's funding in that way as opposed to building a downtown tunnel. This is exactly the opposite route taken by Edmonton where they built subway downtown but cost so much more to build that the system is much shorter, The result is far higher ridership on CTrain. As Edmonton's LRT continues to expand that gap is shrinking but still has quite a ways to go as Ctrain carries 275,000 pass/day and Edmonton 94,000. After the current expansions are complete by 2014 Calgary will be turning it's focus to it's core and is planning a downtown LRT tunnel while Edmonton is expanding outwards.

One of the added expenses {and why Calgary didn't put an emphasis on a downtown tunnel} is that, unlike Edmonton, Calgary sits on a very high water table greatly adding to the expense. Still considering each metro is around the 1.2 million mark, they both have very enviable transit systems. Despite the reputation they have as car=loving both Alberta cities put very high priority on transit. As an example, Calgary started buying land for it's SouthEast LRT 5 years ago even though it will probably not start construction until the end of the decade.
 

Juan_Lennon416

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^ A decision to run an LRT line with wider stop spacing and supplement it with a local bus will, indeed, slightly inconvenience a small portion of the riders who board between the major stops.

TTC has no interest in running both a Sheppard East LRT and a Sheppard East local bus.
 

scarberiankhatru

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I'm of the persuasion that York Mills and Ellesmere would have made for a better route for this.

That's because Ellesmere would make sense. We could have extended the Danforth subway to STC and then have streetcars radiate out along Ellesmere, Progress, and McCowan. Real benefit for more people. Too bad a few light rail cooks spoiled the transit broth by insisting transit avoid STC (and North York Centre, and downtown, and most of the busiest corridors in the city).

If the two hills approaching Yonge could be overcome, a line along Albion/Wilson/York Mills/Ellesmere would be great. Still, it'd cost like $5B and we need it much less than improved subway coverage and GO service.
 

Rainforest

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TTC has no interest in running both a Sheppard East LRT and a Sheppard East local bus.

I know. They are designing Sheppard East LRT as an improved local service, and will make the stops frequent enough that parallel bus service is not needed.

That approach has certain benefits; but it will not change the character of Sheppard East to the extent some posters here are dreaming, nor will it convince Scarberians to vote for pro-LRT Councillors or mayor. Unfortunately, Ford will do well in Scarborough during the next elections, unless he gets a strong right-leaning contender whose management skills look more credible than Ford's to the general public.
 

Juan_Lennon416

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The only way they keep the Sheppard East bus route east of Don Mills is if they do decide to adopt that ideal 17 stop plan nhui06 mentioned in his post. Would be rather interesting if the LRT was an express route and the bus was a local route
 

ssiguy2

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Sheppard will certainly have better service than it has now. The LRT will offer more space, be more comfortable, quiet, smooth, reliable, and generally more pleasant than what the current bus offers. Boardings will be faster and the service will be accessible to all. These are great improvements and one's that riders will appreciate.

The thing that bothers me about Sheppard {and Finch for that matter} is that the keeps referring to this as rapid transit and it will be nothing of the sort. People along the corridor will not save any measureable time with these lines. Stations every 300 meters is local service, hell a lot of regular bus stops have that spacing. Coordinated lights look great in video presentations but when trains are running every 3 minutes meaning they arrive at stops every 90 seconds then advanced lights are nearly impossible to say nothing of having to wait for left hand turns.

I think I could handle these lines better if the TTC was honest about what the citizens are getting...........improved local service. These lines will help but still leaves the Finch and Sheppard corridor {except the stubway} without any rapid transit.
 

W. K. Lis

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The only way they keep the Sheppard East bus route east of Don Mills is if they do decide to adopt that ideal 17 stop plan nhui06 mentioned in his post. Would be rather interesting if the LRT was an express route and the bus was a local route

Look at Yonge Street as an example. At the Lawrence Station is where the 97 Yonge bus runs parallel with the 1 Yonge Subway. The Subway has 5 minute headway service on Sunday, while the bus has 15 minute headway service on Sunday. A good example, to me at least, of why there should be additional stations on the 1 Yonge Subway between Eglinton and Lawrence, and Lawrence and York Mills. Also why having parallel services on the LRT is a waste, since the headways would not be of benefit to the transit user.
 

Rainforest

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Sheppard will certainly have better service than it has now. The LRT will offer more space, be more comfortable, quiet, smooth, reliable, and generally more pleasant than what the current bus offers. Boardings will be faster and the service will be accessible to all. These are great improvements and one's that riders will appreciate.

The thing that bothers me about Sheppard {and Finch for that matter} is that the keeps referring to this as rapid transit and it will be nothing of the sort. People along the corridor will not save any measureable time with these lines. Stations every 300 meters is local service, hell a lot of regular bus stops have that spacing. Coordinated lights look great in video presentations but when trains are running every 3 minutes meaning they arrive at stops every 90 seconds then advanced lights are nearly impossible to say nothing of having to wait for left hand turns.

I think I could handle these lines better if the TTC was honest about what the citizens are getting...........improved local service. These lines will help but still leaves the Finch and Sheppard corridor {except the stubway} without any rapid transit.

I largely agree with your description. However, speed is a lesser concern for Finch West since the typical travel distance will be smaller. Most of residents will be within a 20 min (or less) ride from the Finch West subway station. Therefore, I think that local-ish LRT implementation is OK for Finch West.
 

Rainforest

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Look at Yonge Street as an example. At the Lawrence Station is where the 97 Yonge bus runs parallel with the 1 Yonge Subway. The Subway has 5 minute headway service on Sunday, while the bus has 15 minute headway service on Sunday. A good example, to me at least, of why there should be additional stations on the 1 Yonge Subway between Eglinton and Lawrence, and Lawrence and York Mills.

Those additional stations are nice to have, but they will not render bus 97 unnecessary. Even with those stations, the average distance between stations north of St Clair will be 1 km, versus 600 - 700 m on Bloor subway, and 400 - 500 m in the downtown.
 

W. K. Lis

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Those additional stations are nice to have, but they will not render bus 97 unnecessary. Even with those stations, the average distance between stations north of St Clair will be 1 km, versus 600 - 700 m on Bloor subway, and 400 - 500 m in the downtown.

But having to wait 15 minutes because you just missed a bus? However, if the headways were every 5 minutes, would the cost of a driver, fuel, maintenance, etc. be worth it?
 

Rainforest

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But having to wait 15 minutes because you just missed a bus? However, if the headways were every 5 minutes, would the cost of a driver, fuel, maintenance, etc. be worth it?

But what is your suggestion? Adding just two stations and bringing the distances to 1 km between stations; or adding a whole bunch of new stations and reducing the distances to 500 m?

Adding the two stations between Eglinton and Lawrence, and between Lawrence and York Mills - as you previously suggested - is a reasonable thing to do. It will reduce the number of people dependent on the local bus, will promote density, and will not noticeably affect the subway travel times. But: the local bus will still be needed.

If you tried to get rid of the local bus altogether, you would need about 10 new stations between St Clair and Finch. That would greatly delay the subway trips, and inconvenience the large majority of riders. Besides, that would be very expensive to build.
 

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