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Metrolinx: Finch West LRT

W. K. Lis

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...

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LA Gold Line 1.8 km per stop with parts elevated
Calgary C train 1.3 km per stop
LA Expo Line 1.3 km per stop with parts elevated
Waterloo LRT 1.2 km per stop
Ottawa LRT 1.0 km per stop with parts underground
Mississauga LRT 1.0 km per stop
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Finch LRT 0.6 km per stop with no grade separation
Sheppard LRT 0.5 km per stop with no grade separation
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Would like to see comparisons with European LRT stops. The European cities would be of higher density than the North American cities, even Toronto.

However, Toronto would have a higher density than 0ther North American cities. Seeing high-rise condos in the former Toronto suburbs, for example, would be a rarity to places like LA, unless they build them next to the LRT stations/stops.
 

salsa

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Would like to see comparisons with European LRT stops. The European cities would be of higher density than the North American cities, even Toronto.
However, Toronto would have a higher density than 0ther North American cities. Seeing high-rise condos in the former Toronto suburbs, for example, would be a rarity to places like LA, unless they build them next to the LRT stations/stops.
Stop spacing on Boston's Green Line (C branch) would be quite similar to Finch. The population density along the line is probably higher than Finch, but maybe not by much.
 

MafaldaBoy

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Would like to see comparisons with European LRT stops. The European cities would be of higher density than the North American cities, even Toronto.

Stop spacing for Paris' trams (data taken from here):

T1 (opened 1992): 17 km/36 stops = ~472 m
T2* (1997): 17.9 km/24 stops = ~745 m
T3a (2006): 12.2 km/25 stops = 488 m
T3b (2012): 9.9 km/18 stops = 550 m
T4* (2006): 8 km/11 stops = ~727 m
T5 (2013): 6.6 km/16 stops = 412.5 m
T6 (2014): 14 km/21 stops = ~666 m
T7 (2013): 11.2 km/18 stops = ~622 m
T8 (2014): 8.5 km/17 stops = 500 m

*T2 and T4 use tracks and ROWs originally used by passenger trains, explaining their longer-than-normal stop spacing.

Having personally used several lines of Paris' tramway system, I feel that you can still get trips with higher speeds than one would expect with such frequent stops. Trams rarely stop at intersections, if at all; in fact, they're treated like a railway level crossing and all traffic is stopped to let the tram through.

I used the T7 line which runs through the southern suburbs the most during my stay in Paris, and the built form along most of the route is very similar to Finch West or Sheppard East; the tram's terminus is also the terminus for the Metro line 7, so that is a definite similarity to Sheppard.
 

Steve X

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Having personally used several lines of Paris' tramway system, I feel that you can still get trips with higher speeds than one would expect with such frequent stops. Trams rarely stop at intersections, if at all; in fact, they're treated like a railway level crossing and all traffic is stopped to let the tram through.
The LRTs in Calgary and Edmonton don't stop at intersections either in their suburbs. It feels more like a surface subway but it creates a lot of traffic around the stations when the railway gate lowers but the LRV trains slowly pulls in or out. Some gates block off the roadway for up to 2 minutes in Calgary as the central platform is on one side of the road. The bells keep ringing too while the train is at the platform slowly loading. There is also absolutely no development along any Calgary C-Train stations. The stations are usually company by a huge parking lot as bus connectivity is horrible. The stations are more than 1km apart making pedestrian access near impossible. Although Calgarians think of their transit system is a great system that's better than the TTC. I say to myself, what a horrible system. It still takes half an hour to get from one end to the core.

Is this the kinda transit we want in the Toronto?
 

TheTigerMaster

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The LRTs in Calgary and Edmonton don't stop at intersections either in their suburbs. It feels more like a surface subway but it creates a lot of traffic around the stations when the railway gate lowers but the LRV trains slowly pulls in or out. Some gates block off the roadway for up to 2 minutes in Calgary as the central platform is on one side of the road. The bells keep ringing too while the train is at the platform slowly loading. There is also absolutely no development along any Calgary C-Train stations. The stations are usually company by a huge parking lot as bus connectivity is horrible. The stations are more than 1km apart making pedestrian access near impossible. Although Calgarians think of their transit system is a great system that's better than the TTC. I say to myself, what a horrible system. It still takes half an hour to get from one end to the core.

Is this the kinda transit we want in the Toronto?

The Calgary LRTs have more in common with Allen Expressway/Spadina Subway than any conventional LRT line.
 

Steve X

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The Calgary LRTs have more in common with Allen Expressway/Spadina Subway than any conventional LRT line.
True for the NW line. The south line is beside a railway. West line had more grade separation that lead to a massive budget overrun. The NE line is built beside a at-grade expressway (Highway 27 type road).

It seems that some of us here are describing a LRT like the Calgary C-Trains without railway gates. Stations are far apart to optimize speed.

A portal like this would be similar to the Finch/Hwy 27 intersection: https://www.google.ca/maps/@51.0520...0uYfm_-Qg5iw!2e0!7i13312!8i6656!6m1!1e1?hl=en
 

superman

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Question is is Eglinton West meant to be a RT to the airport or just a local service? Is Finch meant to be a RT connection to Humber College or just a local service? Is Sheppard LRT meant to be a subway replacement?

I think a tram style LRT makes way more sense downtown. But in these suburbs - some speed really does matter for people commuting (proven by higher ridership numbers when Eglinton was underground)


When the transit city lines were designed, they wanted local development and maximize local travel. Everyone seems to want to speed it up, remove local access and create a faster link to the downtown core like that's the only place people would go.


No problem, I can walk 1 or 2 km to a station. Grandma and Grandpa can't. Also people don't live by the stop especially in the burbs. Most people are already walking 400-600m to a bus stop. Now you're suggesting them to walk another 500m. Good luck trying to get them to use transit and an awesome way to get ridership to drop. TTC would need to run a parallel bus service of stops are 1000m apart as that's not consider accessible to everyone.

I really don't believe in turning the LRT's into subway like links. GO is better off building a strong RER network that connects easily with the LRTs. If people need to get to places faster, just take the LRT to the GO station. LRT+subway to downtown is already takes too much time to get from the edge of the city to downtown. Plus unless the LRTs are grade separated, placing stops 1000m apart won't help that much.
 

TheTigerMaster

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Question is is Eglinton West meant to be a RT to the airport or just a local service? Is Finch meant to be a RT connection to Humber College or just a local service? Is Sheppard LRT meant to be a subway replacement?

They're supposed to be a faster, larger capacity service that maintains local connectivity.
 

Steve X

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Question is is Eglinton West meant to be a RT to the airport or just a local service? Is Finch meant to be a RT connection to Humber College or just a local service? Is Sheppard LRT meant to be a subway replacement?

I think a tram style LRT makes way more sense downtown. But in these suburbs - some speed really does matter for people commuting (proven by higher ridership numbers when Eglinton was underground)
No, the UPX is there real RT out of Pearson. There's no real need for another fast RT to the east end. Even if Eglinton was built as a full subway, it would taken an hour to travel to the east, let's say STC. It's so not appealing and low demand, people are better off taking the 34 GO bus to Yorkdale and York Mills. Transfer to another GO bus to STC and beyond if they need to. Connecting both Crosstown West and Finch West makes sense by improving local access to the airport and create a transit hub there.

Finch West is very local. A subway wouldn't do where there at all. There are some people who suffers getting from Martin Grove to Finch Station every day but they only make up <5% of the trips. Many of the trips are made by people like poor moms going to supermarkets and picking up their kids from school. The 36 Finch West bus was stated to discontinue with the LRT replacing it. None of the LRT lines were intended for fast RT (subway like) service. Only Crosstown West came up for reconsideration because of SmartTrack and the low demand for mid block stops. Eglinton West isn't like Finch West nor Sheppard East.

These suburb LRTs aren't like downtown tram style LRTs. With 500-600m stop spacing, they're expected to load, fly for 45-60 sec and stop for the next stop with working transit priority. Like the BD line by stops are a bit closer. The BD line stops averages only 700-800m. Is there too many stations on the BD line? Some would say so. That's also the average of many older subway systems around the world (NYC, Paris and even HK).
 

rbt

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Question is is Eglinton West meant to be a RT to the airport or just a local service? Is Finch meant to be a RT connection to Humber College or just a local service? Is Sheppard LRT meant to be a subway replacement?

They're replacements for overloaded local bus routes. Finch hits 45 second frequencies in the busiest sections; lights are 90 to 120 seconds so today we effectively run bus-trains of 2 to 3 units down Finch with 1 driver per unit.

LRT will be a single train with 6-bus capacity and a single driver providing similar service as the popular bus route.
 

BurlOak

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They're supposed to be a faster, larger capacity service that maintains local connectivity.

Is it the best of both worlds, or the worst of both worlds?

Something like Finch was never going to be subway, so maybe its the best.
Eglinton, which is within easy reach of being fully grade-separated, it may be the worst.
 

crs1026

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Stops need to be considered within the overall envelope of "impediments" in the design - traffic lights, U turn lanes, etc. Adding one or two transit stops may not matter much on their own, but if overall trip time is already challenged it could be the proverbial final straw.

I can't imagine there will ever be much intermediate-stop demand on Eglinton West - even with the development going in, Richmond Gardens won't generate many trips. The ridership will consist of people transferring at major north-south arteries, and/or people making the long haul from the Airport area to York or beyoind. This argues for the "speedy" version. Maybe this is an opportunity to explore creative use of "jitney" local buses, which don't have to be full size.

On Finch, designing LRT with frequent stops may be attractive so long as the line is only a stub connected to Line 1.....but if there is any vision to extend it eastwards, fewer stops would be desirable so that the line appeals as an alternative to driving across the top of the city. Again, it depends on just how many other impediments get designed in.

- Paul
 

W. K. Lis

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Tramway T7 is what you'd get if you transported Finch West to Paris:


Five points that I saw in the video.

1) The transit signals are actually different from the traffic signals. We should have them here in Ontario.
2) There are no verbage signage that tells us that these are "TRANSIT SIGNALS" ("signal de transit"?), like here in Toronto, resulting in less street clutter.
3) "Grass" is legal in France. "Grass" is still illegal in Canada. Which means that in France, they allow the use of "grass" on the right-of-ways. This has to change, man.
4) The word "STOP" is allowed in France. (Not allowed in Quebec, it seems.) Noticed it briefly at a pedestrian crossing.
5) They use double-point track switches. They should be using double-point track switches on Finch West and the other Transit City lines. However, they should use double-point track switches on the downtown streetcar track network, if they get the funding to do so, to stop the current stopping at each and every switch that they current have to do.
 

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