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Metrolinx: Finch West LRT

fanoftoronto

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I really dont think Finch should go East from where it is now. Extending the Sheppard subway west is a much better use of funds.

If we're talking about better use of funds, it'll be a lot cheaper (probably half the cost or less) to extend the Finch line on the surface until Yonge, than it would be to tunnel the Sheppard line until Sheppard West Station.

Also, more people on the Finch line would want to get to Finch station than folks on the Sheppard line want to get to Sheppard West station.
 

Northern Light

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If we're talking about better use of funds, it'll be a lot cheaper (probably half the cost or less) to extend the Finch line on the surface until Yonge, than it would be to tunnel the Sheppard line until Sheppard West Station.

Also, more people on the Finch line would want to get to Finch station than folks on the Sheppard line want to get to Sheppard West station.

The primary case for Sheppard West is connecting Line 4 to Wilson Yard to provide easier, less time consuming deadhead movements and potentially avoid the cost of building a new yard for Sheppard East.

Serving passengers is more incidental to that since the tunnel would be there anyway; though the proposed build out at Downsview will create a very large residential and employment hub over time.
 

robmausser

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If we're talking about better use of funds, it'll be a lot cheaper (probably half the cost or less) to extend the Finch line on the surface until Yonge, than it would be to tunnel the Sheppard line until Sheppard West Station.

Also, more people on the Finch line would want to get to Finch station than folks on the Sheppard line want to get to Sheppard West station.

Better use of funds does not mean cheaper, it means value for your money.

Not only is Finch particularly narrow through this section, but an at-grade LRT is not a good use of what essentially will be used as an express transfer between the two Line 1's.
 

fanoftoronto

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The primary case for Sheppard West is connecting Line 4 to Wilson Yard to provide easier, less time consuming deadhead movements and potentially avoid the cost of building a new yard for Sheppard East.

I mean, the distance between Sheppard West station and Yonge-Sheppard station is 4 km. Half the distance of the planned Yonge North Subway extension and that one costs $5.6 billion. Meaning making this subway connection on Sheppard could cost up to $2.8 billion.

Compared with the Finch West LRT at 10km costing $1.2 billion. The 6 km link on Finch could cost up to a paltry $720 million.

The total cost savings for extending Finch vs extending Sheppard results in a savings of $2 billion.

I don't think anywhere in the world where deadhead movement of trains require a $2 billion overspend. Especially if demand on Finch would be much higher than Sheppard west.

Serving passengers is more incidental to that since the tunnel would be there anyway; though the proposed build out at Downsview will create a very large residential and employment hub over time.

We need to be building systems to cater passengers. Not incidentally serve passengers when there happens to be a tunnel in place.
 

Voltz

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Better use of funds does not mean cheaper, it means value for your money.

Not only is Finch particularly narrow through this section, but an at-grade LRT is not a good use of what essentially will be used as an express transfer between the two Line 1's.
Finch has plenty of room through here, and decent ridership, and a Yonge extension will have a train yard built with it.
 

Northern Light

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I mean, the distance between Sheppard West station and Yonge-Sheppard station is 4 km. Half the distance of the planned Yonge North Subway extension and that one costs $5.6 billion. Meaning making this subway connection on Sheppard could cost up to $2.8 billion.

Sure, though there are different components included, stations vs tunnels but I think you'd be in the ballpark.

Compared with the Finch West LRT at 10km costing $1.2 billion. The 6 km link on Finch could cost up to a paltry $720 million/

The total cost savings for extending Finch vs extending Sheppard results in a savings of $2 billion.

Does it? Do you need a yard for Sheppard East, yes or no? Because if you do, (and if that cost is avoided by the Wilson connection, the yard cost will be ~1B, plus any connecting tunnel. )

I don't think anywhere in the world where deadhead movement of trains require a $2 billion overspend. Especially if demand on Finch would be much higher than Sheppard west.

This statement does not make sense to me. As note above, if Sheppard requires either a new yard, or a yard connection, this is something that can't be provided by the Finch LRT.

Your statement only works if there is no Sheppard subway extension and no yard or yard connection required.

We need to be building systems to cater passengers. Not incidentally serve passengers when there happens to be a tunnel in place.

Sure; but if a yard for Sheppard East is required etc etc.

Again, the demand node at Downsview when build-out is completed is larger than the existing or projected demand on Finch West.

PS, In anticipation of a Sheppard West extension, land assemblies and planning for new density are underway.
 
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Northern Light

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Finch has plenty of room through here, and decent ridership, and a Yonge extension will have a train yard built with it.

The yard proposed for the Line 1 north extension will not have sufficient room for any Line 4 rolling stock.
 

afransen

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Does it? Do you need a yard for Sheppard East, yes or no? Because if you do, (and if that cost is avoided by the Wilson connection, the yard cost will be ~1B, plus any connecting tunnel. )
Doesn't this just mean Sheppard East is an even more questionable investment?
 

afransen

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The yard proposed for the Line 1 north extension will not have sufficient room for any Line 4 rolling stock.
One would think that a billion dollars could change this fact. I know Toronto is famously unimaginative, but other cities have multi-level yards with development on top.
 

fanoftoronto

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Better use of funds does not mean cheaper, it means value for your money.

Not only is Finch particularly narrow through this section, but an at-grade LRT is not a good use of what essentially will be used as an express transfer between the two Line 1's.

Agreeing with @Voltz, it's already been shown earlier in this thread that the original EA for the Finch LRT included the 6 km between Finch West station and Finch station. And the line is on the surface for 95% of the length, coming out from underground 1 block east of Finch West station at Tangiers and going back underground just 1 block west of Finch Station at Beecroft.

Finch ave is plenty wide to accommodate this as a surface LRT.

Sure, though there are different components included, stations vs tunnels but I think you'd be in the ballpark.





Does it? Do you need a yard for Sheppard East, yes or no? Because if you do, (and if that cost is avoided by the Wilson connection, the yard cost will be ~1B, plus any connecting tunnel.



This statement does not make sense to me. As note above, if Sheppard requires either a new yard, or a yard connection, this is something that can't be provided by the Finch LRT.

Your statement only works if there is no Sheppard subway extension and no yard or yard connection required.



Sure; but if a yard for Sheppard East is required etc etc.

Again, the demand node at Downsview when build-out is completed is larger than the existing or projected demand on Finch West.

PS, In anticipation of a Sheppard West extension, land assemblies and planning for new density are underway.

The Sheppard East extension of Line 4 would mean they'll be running 6-car trainsets instead of 4-car trainsets of Toronto Rocket trains exactly the same as Line 1. Meaning they can be serviced at the new Yonge North yard or at the Wilson yard. Removing the requirement for the connection through Sheppard.

The yard proposed for the Line 1 north extension will not have sufficient room for any Line 4 rolling stock.

I mean, then service the Sheppard trains at the Yonge north yard, and move the excess Line 1 trains to the Wilson Yard. You still have the same exact capacity, just where you put the trains at the end of the day. Your deadhead movement of trains drastically reduces going from Yonge north to Sheppard.
 

Northern Light

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Doesn't this just mean Sheppard East is an even more questionable investment?

I don't think so. I think the business case for Sheppard East is there in the medium term based on development proposals already public, and several more to come.

****

One would think that a billion dollars could change this fact. I know Toronto is famously unimaginative, but other cities have multi-level yards with development on top.

The space currently proposed for this yard is adjacent to the CN owned mainline and needs to maintain room for two through tracks for a future extension to Major Mack (which is very much a live consideration).

This is a very narrow space and is not conceived of as a heavy maintenance yard site.

Extremely intense development is already proposed at this location, though don't believe it is contemplated over the tracks themselves at this point.

But one would have to very much reconceptualize the yard's capacity and purpose.

But you also must consider having sufficient Line 1 capacity to have trains deadhead to Line 4 w/o interrupting Line 1 service. I don't see it.
 

Northern Light

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The Sheppard East extension of Line 4 would mean they'll be running 6-car trainsets instead of 4-car trainsets of Toronto Rocket trains exactly the same as Line 1. Meaning they can be serviced at the new Yonge North yard or at the Wilson yard. Removing the requirement for the connection through Sheppard.

This is simply incorrect.

The Yonge North Yard is not proposed for heavy maintenance and not large enough to store Line 4's rollingstock.

But even if it were, you need sufficient Line 1 capacity to allow for all those deadheading Line 4 trains, and you also need to consider all the non-revenue mileage.

I'm not sure why you're trying to argue this with me. I have no vested interest against Finch West or in favour of Sheppard, I'm simply putting forward the facts. Those facts really aren't in dispute.
Either Line 4 goes west to Wilson or Sheppard East gets a new yard and connecting track, the end. That's it. There's no other choices. If you oppose any further extension of Sheppard, that's fine, but the current plans having it going ahead
and we need to factor that in to how money is invested.
 
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fanoftoronto

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This is simply incorrect.

Which part is incorrect. I stated like 3 different things in that sentence.
  1. The Sheppard East extension of Line 4 would mean they'll be running 6-car trainsets instead of 4-car trainsets of Toronto Rocket trains
  2. Exactly the same as Line 1.
  3. Meaning they can be serviced at the new Yonge North yard or at the Wilson yard. Removing the requirement for the connection through Sheppard.
The Yonge North Yard is not proposed for heavy maintenance and not large enough to store Line 4's rollingstock.

Sure, but it'll still have space to store trains, otherwise, what's the point in building this yard? And what's stopping them from using the trains stored in this yard to go to Line 4 instead of Line 1? It's not like Line 4 has 25 trains running on it. Actually, right now it only has 6 trains total, if memory serves me right.

I'm not sure why your trying to argue this with me. I have no vested interest against Finch West or in favour of Sheppard, I'm simply putting forward the facts. Those facts really aren't in dispute.
Either Line 4 goes west to Wilson or Sheppard East gets a new yard and connecting track, the end. That's it. There's no other choices. If you oppose any further extension of Sheppard, that's fine, but the current plans having it going ahead
and we need to factor that in to how money is invested.

I mean you're arguing for a $2.8 billion dollar line just to link Line 4 to Wilson yard directly. With no regard for what the demand is for this line or if the money would be better spent elsewhere. Hypothetically, even if a new yard costs $1 billion (you provided this number) to be built somewhere on Sheppard East after it's extended, you're still saving $1.8 billion to be used elsewhere.

I don't have a vested interest against the Sheppard West extension to Wilson yard either. But I see you are arguing to build a $2.8 billion dollar line to save $1 billion on a new subway yard.
 

Northern Light

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Which part is incorrect. I stated like 3 different things in that sentence.
  1. The Sheppard East extension of Line 4 would mean they'll be running 6-car trainsets instead of 4-car trainsets of Toronto Rocket trains
  2. Exactly the same as Line 1.
  3. Meaning they can be serviced at the new Yonge North yard or at the Wilson yard. Removing the requirement for the connection through Sheppard.

The bolded is incorrect because of deadhead time and conflicts with Line 1 traffic.

The existing 4-car, Line 4 trains are already serviced at Wilson, they simply aren't stored there because of the deadhead/capacity issues. It takes about an hour to get a train from Wilson yard to Line 4, each direction.

That conflict is actually marginally increased by longer train lengths which mean more physical space being occupied by deadheading trains.

This isn't just operator time, or electricity costs, though it is both of those; its about the ability to start up and ramp down Line 1 service, and the overnight maintenance window for tracks/tunnels which is already quite small.

Sure, but it'll still have space to store trains, otherwise, what's the point in building this yard? And what's stopping them from using the trains stored in this yard to go to Line 4 instead of Line 1? It's not like Line 4 has 25 trains running on it. Actually, right now it only has 6 trains total, if memory serves me right.

The space in the new yard is to support new trains required for Line 1, that's why there isn't any room for trains from Line 4.

I mean you're arguing for a $2.8 billion dollar line just to link Line 4 to Wilson yard directly.

No, I am not. I am simply stating a fact that this connection, or a new yard on a future Sheppard east extension, with connecting track IS required based on existing plans.

That isn't a pro/anti anything. Its a fact, like gravity.

With no regard for what the demand is for this line or if the money would be better spent elsewhere.

That simply isn't a case I've made, at all, ever. Please read what I have posted, carefully.

Hypothetically, even if a new yard costs $1 billion (you provided this number) to be built somewhere on Sheppard East after it's extended, you're still saving $1.8 billion to be used elsewhere.

I was being VERY conservative.

Here is the capital budget line item for the new Obico yard for Line 2:

1664568891650.png



Source: https://www.toronto.ca/legdocs/mmis/2022/ex/bgrd/backgroundfile-199568.pdf

And the line is right there, more or less.

By comparison, the only place an eastern yard is going is CP's existing Toronto Yard. Assuming CP agreed to sell some or all of that yard to TTC, the connecting track would be significant back to Sheppard.

I don't have a vested interest against the Sheppard West extension to Wilson yard either. But I see you are arguing to build a $2.8 billion dollar line to save $1 billion on a new subway yard.

You keep using the word 'arguing'.

I am simply putting forward the facts. Not because I desperately want to build this, I'm not part of a pro-Sheppard extension movement.

I just find the case for Finch as an alternative to Sheppard unconvincing in light of the facts.
 
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