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Madison, The 
101 Eglinton Av E, Toronto
Developer: Madison Group


Madison, The (Madison Homes) - Real Estate -

anddan

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#1
From what I heard, the market is really warmed to take up what have been released (West Tower & Podium). The source says the podium units priced at ~ $580/sf. The tower units are ~ $615+/sf.
 

dwynix3

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#2
From what I heard, the market is really warmed to take up what have been released (West Tower & Podium). The source says the podium units priced at ~ $580/sf. The tower units are ~ $615+/sf.
Wow starting at $615? that's almost downtown core prices, maintenance is even higher than some prime downtown addresses. Face it nowadays 50% plus all pre-con units are sold to investors, wondering how many would payup for a midtown location at downtown prices with zippo chance of turning a positive cash flow.
 

cdr108

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#3
Wow starting at $615? that's almost downtown core prices, maintenance is even higher than some prime downtown addresses. Face it nowadays 50% plus all pre-con units are sold to investors, wondering how many would payup for a midtown location at downtown prices with zippo chance of turning a positive cash flow.
isn't this pricing similar to what you paid for Pace ?!?
Y/E is a SUBSTANTIALLY better location than Jarvis/Dundas.

since prices are similar, neither would return a positive cash flow.
but i believe rental rates for this location will be better than J/D, again due to desirable location, location, location.
 
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#4
Agree with CDR. This is a very desirable neighborhood to reside. The area should command a premium to many downtown locations, particularly now that it has subway access close by.

My concern would be the credibility of the developer though. What have they actually built?
 

dwynix3

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#5
CDR I was referrring to Pre-cons in the entertainment district ie. Peter Street Condos at $600-$650, Even Cinema Towers starting at around $680, right next to TIFF light box are both new releases with lower maintenance than the Madison, location wise this area has the makings of the next Yorkville, they would yield far better returns in 2-3 yrs to a flipper/investor should the current condo boom continue.

Wasn't intending on drawing direct comparison with Pace, it's a play on gentrification, even 1 phase Regent Park investors are sitting on a handsome profit of 30%, Pace being right in the heart of downtown; two blocks away from Eaton Centre & subway station; a street from Ryerson Universtiy and a few paces away from streetcar stop, so should the market softens in the next while, at least you could ride it out with a stable renter base of Ryerson students, which is crucial considering the on coming flood of new condo/rental units within the next year or 2 , can't say the same for madison though hey Y/E center is no Eaton Centre.

BTW I got my units at $530-$550 excluding locker and those are higher floor with unobstructed views, at Madison you're looking at a $615 starting price most likely no view one floor above podium. As far as the rental market is concerned, 1 bedroom units at X condos & Casa can be found on MLS for around $1450-$1600 I would defintely pick a Y/B address over Y/E, nevertheless a 1 bedroom unit at the Merchandise lofts right across from Pace commands a similar range of $1500, so if there is to be a difference in rent between the two locations it would certainly not exceed the 15%-25% price differential, higher initial investment implies a higher deposit/downpayment requirement, monthly carrying cost, property tax, etc. so in the mind of an investor the lost opportunity cost of all these extra investment dollars has to be considered too.

I try to follow these rules when investing in pre-cons, pace along with Peter street condos seem to fit the bill:

Let your money work for you. Always buy in an area that’s gentrifying. When buying preconstruction you are buying 3-4 years out. Why pay a premium to be in an area that’s already developed? The greatest up tick will be found in areas that are undergoing rapid growth and gentrification.

Never buy at the high end of the market. When you are buying preconstruction you are essentially buying condo futures. While we can all gaze into out crystal ball and predict the future we can never be sure with 100% certainty that our predictions will come true. Those who buy at the high end, you will be the most exposed when the market softens or if there is a downturn at the time of the project completion. By buying astutely in the mid to low end of the market you are better positioned to sustain a market shift or correction.
 
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taal

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#6
The one thing to keep in mind, is transitionally, new development in the Y&E area (and there isn't that much of it) goes for a little more then most areas downtown. This varies from project to project and lately I find downtown prices are exceeding this area. But again in the past it was the norm for Y&E to be more expensive. This actually applies to rent as well! You can find cheaper rent downtown in comparable spaces (excluding new new construction).

The argument about desirability is debatable as that depends on personal preference. On the hole I agree with you but at the same time disagree. I'd wager that this area would struggle to keep up with rents downtown if a downturn occurs but condo prices will remain more stable here. It's a very desirable area and there's very little new construction.

As of now, in the area there's only 3 projects. This one, Neon, and one just south of Yonge and Eglinton that I forgot the name of :).

In the past 3/5 years there's really only been 3 or 4. Namely, Minto / 88 Red Path / 88 Broadway / Panache / Mt. Pleasant ... that's all!
 

dwynix3

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#7
I agree with you in certain aspects but ever wonder why there is so little new construction at Y/E, while a glut of projects are going up downtown, somehow the prices just continues to shoot up regardless?

Maybe this comes down to simple down supply/demand equation, the demand for downtown condos be it from foreign investors or domestic population growth far exceeded current supply, builders are attempting to fill this supply shortage by concentrating in the downtown core at the expense of midtown. Don't tell me there aren't any dilapidated gas stations, seedy stripmalls or convenience stores that needs to be torn down in around the Y/E area, then why isn't there more development?

Perhaps the demographic changes in our city gave rise to a younger population base who prefers to live downtown afterall it's where all the action is. Even further north around yonge/sheppard/finch you have demand coming from people who works in York Region but wishes to stay in a dense city setting or have been driven out of the detached home market due to the ever soaring prices on single family dewillings. Hence in bewteen these two groups of underlying demand Y/E is in a sort of no mans land I think. At these prices Madison is quickly approaching the psf of other desirable areas of downtown, X2, 42 charles Street, Cinema towers. etc.

One week into the opening, the Madison sales centre looks pretty quiet, on a side note Great Golf has decided not to open a sales centre for Pace as just about all units are sold at this stage, when was the last time a project soldout prior to public opening all without the help of a major ad campaign or sales centre? This indicates demand is still as strong as ever for attractively priced downtown core units.
 
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taal

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#8
I agree with you in certain aspects but ever wonder why there is so little new construction at Y/E, while a glut of projects are going up downtown, somehow the prices just continues to shoot up regardless?

Maybe this comes down to simple down supply/demand equation, the demand for downtown condos be it from foreign investors or domestic population growth far exceeded current supply, builders are attempting to fill this supply shortage by concentrating in the downtown core at the expense of midtown. Don't tell me there aren't any dilapidated gas stations, seedy stripmalls or convenience stores that needs to be torn down in around the Y/E area, then why isn't there more development?

Perhaps the demographic changes in our city gave rise to a younger population base who prefers to live downtown afterall it's where all the action is. Even further north around yonge/sheppard/finch you have demand coming from people who works in York Region but wishes to stay in a dense city setting or have been driven out of the detached home market due to the ever soaring prices on single family dewillings. Hence in bewteen these two groups of underlying demand Y/E is in a sort of no mans land I think. At these prices Madison is quickly approaching the psf of other desirable areas of downtown, X2, 42 charles Street, Cinema towers. etc.

One week into the opening, the Madison sales centre looks pretty quiet, on a side note Great Golf has decided to not to open a sales centre for Pace as just about all units are sold at this stage, when was the last time a project soldout prior to public opening all without the help of a major ad campaign or sales centre? This indicates demand is still as strong as ever for attractively priced downtown core units.
Good points all around. But you can't really compare it easily to downtown. Take your comment
Don't tell me there aren't any dilapidated gas stations, seedy stripmalls...
actually no there are not :) ... okay, of course there are in the surrounding area but that's not the area that's desirable from a condo point of view. This is the same as NYCC, you really only see condos right on Yonge. In downtown, huge swaths of land can be 'considered' desirable so there are just so many more potential sites.

Now you've probably heard of a few new projects on Eglinton west, but these are really in a completely different market.

I think you point regarding foreign investment is key actually. Clearly a lot of that takes place downtown and for the most part they wouldn't consider areas like Y&E. NYCC also sees a lot of foreign investment as well due to the market demographics. You see this elsewhere, take the downtown markham project, I've heard there is a ton of foreign investment here as well ... again, demographics.

The prices you quote for this project do seem high, higher then many projects downtown less the 'high end market' which this is not targeted too. Maybe they priced everything too high.

Regarding the younger population, Y&E remains an extermely attractive place to rent while working downtown or in the surrounding area. A lot of these people purchase as well so I don't really buy this i.e. in short many 18-30 do want to live here.
 

dwynix3

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#9
actually no there are not ... okay, of course there are in the surrounding area but that's not the area that's desirable from a condo point of view. This is the same as NYCC, you really only see condos right on Yonge. In downtown, huge swaths of land can be 'considered' desirable so there are just so many more potential sites
Overall I don't believe Y/E can be classified as an upscale or an substantially affluent area considering the high concentration of purposefully built older rental apts & co-ops around, unlike NYCC there aren't even any premium hotels, lack of major entertainment venues, ie Centre for the Arts@NYCC render it off the tourists map. One block in any direction beyhond that corner is pretty boring, not much streetlife compare to downtown, why are builders feverishly acquiring land downtown and even NYCC paying premium prices while Y/E remains largely ignored?

Yes, there simply isn't the demand or desire for that address amongst investors as about 50-60% of all pre-con units are sold to that group, in an up trend market one has to go where the demand lays.

Within a similar price range I say owning a Y/E address just doesn't carry the same prestige factor as an address down at Y/B or the entertainment district next to some of finest hotel/condos in the world.

actually no there are not ... okay, of course there are in the surrounding area but that's not the area that's desirable from a condo point of view. This is the same as NYCC, you really only see condos right on Yonge. In downtown, huge swaths of land can be 'considered' desirable so there are just so many more potential sites

Regarding the younger population, Y&E remains an extermely attractive place to rent while working downtown or in the surrounding area. A lot of these people purchase as well so I don't really buy this i.e. in short many 18-30 do want to live here.
My girlfriend works in the area, she gets off work around 10ish and the place is pretty dead other then Silver City. A lot of people have told us this area is known as Yonge and eligible.. maybe it was in the 90s. She feels like she is the only 20 something who isn't a yuppie soccer mom with toddlers and an suv.. yonge and eligible has become yonge and suburbanite (especially when you go to Starbucks).
 
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taal

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#10
Overall I don't believe Y/E can be classified as an upscale or an substantially affluent area considering the high concentration of purposefully built older rental apts & co-ops around, unlike NYCC there aren't even any premium hotels, lack of major entertainment venues, ie Centre for the Arts@NYCC render it off the tourists map. One block in any direction beyhond that corner is pretty boring, not much streetlife compare to downtown, why are builders feverishly acquiring land downtown and even NYCC paying premium prices while Y/E remains largely ignored?

Yes, there simply isn't the demand or desire for that address amongst investors as about 50-60% of all pre-con units are sold to that group, in an up trend market one has to go where the demand lays.

Within a similar price range I say owning a Y/E address just doesn't carry the same prestige factor as an address down at Y/B or the entertainment district next to some of finest hotel/condos in the world.



My girlfriend works in the area, she gets off work around 10ish and the place is pretty dead other then Silver City. A lot of people have told us this area is known as Yonge and eligible.. maybe it was in the 90s. She feels like she is the only 20 something who isn't a yuppie soccer mom with toddlers and an suv.. yonge and eligible has become yonge and suburbanite (especially when you go to Starbucks).
It's interesting take but why do I see a completely different neighborhood. In general there is more pedestrian activity (thought confined to a small space) then many parts of downtown. The yuppie feel has always existed (for the last 10 years or so, I'm not sure of anything before). Really what are you comparing it to ? It's not Queen street (and many would consider that good and others bad) but it's a lot more interesting then Bay, you seem to detest the yuppie factor so I'll throw in Bloor, I personally love the low-end feel of Yonge but many don't.

The housing is expensive but the point about rentals is true, there are a lot of them. And actually that's what contributes to the eligible bit for whats it worth, many of the low 20 somethings rent. Regarding the soccer mom feel that has always always existed, more so north of Eglinton.

Condos (new ones and old) are quite a bit more expesnive then NYCC and many have appreciated to a larger extent (I can attest to this, though personally I don't think this is a measure of anything). There just isn't much available land either. Not that doesn't involve ripping down old rentals.

The streetlife comment is really interesting to me because I've found Yonge and Eglinton more alive then many streets downtown. Though your argument about it dieing off in any direction is true.
Take a stroll any nice night, even during the week, even more so on the weekends. You're right there are more families - I'm not sure if they are soccer moms or whatever that comment even implies.
If you're looking for night life, I'd agree there's not much, there's a club or two that are quite busy but that's it.



Retail is also great here, though the yuppie factor does exist, again the more north you go. That's what NYCC lacks in spades, it has good restaurants, though the variety is limited and just about 0 interesting retail.

In regards to a tourism magnent, yes it's no downtown. But NYCC's great civic space doesn't either. I'm hoping the redevelopment of the Y&E can add a great space here (though it'll be small).
 
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sixrings

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#11
I think yonge Eglinton will BOOM with the new Crosstown LRT... The crosstown should cause some businesses to think of having their offices in this area again. The fact that its closer to downtown and will have both north south and east west rapid transit should cause more then just some businesses to move here. NYCC will continue to grow but alot of people move to yonge and sheppard simply because its on yonge and on the 401. However that part of the 401 and the on and off ramps are getting worse and worse. I dont know how much longer a "faux" downtown can work at NYCC with a car oriented culture. Maybe the people there will take transit in the future but it sure appears that they dont want to part with their cars. Y&E has also had a HUGE problem growing. The main problem is that the neighbouring houses to the intersection are more often then not million dollar homes if not mulitmillion dolllar homes. As a result any proposal gets challenged for height. I was reading a article the other day about residents challenging a 20 floor condo. 20 floors is nothing in todays world. MCC has Aboslute (50floors) NYCC has emerald (40 floors) downtown has Trump and 1 bloor (70 floors). Eventually these residents (despite how much money they have or influence they have) will have to just realize that their neighbourhood is changing and they are going to have to live with it or move. Y&E will never be downtown but it doesnt have to be. But I could see how once things start moving that Y&E will have more development then yonge and Sheppard.
 

Tulse

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#12
different neighborhood. In general there is more pedestrian activity (thought confined to a small space) then many parts of downtown. The yuppie feel has always existed (for the last 10 years or so, I'm not sure of anything before). Really what are you comparing it to ? It's not Queen street (and many would consider that good and others bad) but it's a lot more interesting then Bay, you seem to detest the yuppie factor so I'll throw in Bloor
This area's been considered reasonably upscale for a while now -- in the '80s the area was called "Young and Eligible" because it was seen as a spot for affluent yuppies.
 

dwynix3

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#13
It's interesting take but why do I see a completely different neighborhood. In general there is more pedestrian activity (thought confined to a small space) then many parts of downtown. The yuppie feel has always existed (for the last 10 years or so, I'm not sure of anything before). Really what are you comparing it to ? .
This discussion all started when someone posted:
From what I heard, the market is really warmed to take up what have been released (West Tower & Podium). The source says the podium units priced at ~ $580/sf. The tower units are ~ $615+/sf.
to which I find questionable, again most new precons are sold to investors, I was simply alluding to the fact that on a strictly investment perspective, at $615 psf. & $0.54/sf maintenace. there are simply many more viable downtown core alternatives with greater profit potential for an investor, ie. peter street, pace condos. even cinema tower etc. ie. areas under raip transition or gentrification.

The crosstown LRT has a projected completion date of 2020, knowing the way the city works, we won't likely see it done til 2015, most condo investors are focusing on short term ROI, as once a building ages beyond 10 yrs, the monthly carrying cost of maintenace skyrockets, down at Y/B a 2 bedroom unit at 30 hayden st. can be had for under $380K with a $700 maintenace, while just next door @ Bloor1 a similar 2 bedroom would fetch $600K. With the height restrictions in this neighborhood, the pace of developement would be extremely gradual.

The long awaited LRT would eventually bring some much needed streetlife along this corridor & help to bring condo prices in this neighborhood to its full potential. However with a glut of cheap rental housing nearby one would be a little hesitant paying the $615 sqf + maintance in 2011 & hoping the rent would keep you afloat for the next 10-15. years. Personally I would stick with downtown core when it comes to investing.
 
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dwynix3

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#14
This area's been considered reasonably upscale for a while now-- in the '80s the area was called "Young and Eligible" because it was seen as a spot for affluent yuppies.
But why? It's located in a sea of lower income rental properties. There are no yorkville like high end designer boutiques, no premium hotels, no major entertainment venue, not even a decent restaurant to be found @ that corner. Riocan centre was the only attraction til recently.

Maybe it was due to the complete lack of a cityscene back then, the now hip areas of king west, Queens west, distillery, st. lawrence market & parts of ent. district. etc were all nothing but rundown warehouses/industrial wasteland. Mel lastman square was pretty much all there is @ NYCC, I wasn't around here in the 80s, but it's safe to presume that outside of Yorkville & Eaton Centre, Y/E was probably the most appealing place to be, so it rightly wore the upscale moniker to which I feel is no longer justified in the Toronto of 2011
 
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taal

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#15
But why? It's located in a sea of lower income rental properties. There are no yorkville like high end designer boutiques, no premium hotels, no major entertainment venue, not even a decent restaurant to be found @ that corner. Riocan centre was the only attraction til recently.

Maybe it was due to the complete lack of a cityscene back then, the now hip areas of king west, Queens west, distillery, st. lawrence market & parts of ent. district. etc were all nothing but rundown warehouses/industrial wasteland. Mel lastman square was pretty much all there is @ NYCC, I wasn't around here in the 80s, but it's safe to presume that outside of Yorkville & Eaton Centre, Y/E was probably the most appealing place to be, so it rightly wore the upscale moniker to which I feel is no longer justified in the Toronto of 2011
But in regards to shopping that's where you're wrong, there are not international designers, but once you venture north of Broadway there are lot of designer stores on Yonge all the way up to Lawrence. Also don't forgot the housing, the housing (i.e. homes not condos) have always been very expensive, and actually have appreciated more then many other areas in Toronto so there is no sign of this changing.

The rentals have always been there, there are plenty of rentals downtown I'm not understanding this argument. The St. Lawrence market area has plenty of rentals. So does Bloor east. The rental prices at Y&E are quite high as well.