That's not what his comment was though. He said "Toronto, however, is very myopic when it comes to transit with the new mantra being LRT and nothing but".
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Lift-off for urban cable car projects as cities seek transport solutions
- Thread starter M II A II R II K
- Start date
That's not what his comment was though. He said "Toronto, however, is very myopic when it comes to transit with the new mantra being LRT and nothing but".
rbt
Senior Member
Within the TTC, BRT doesn't get the love it should; but then diamond lanes are all we need in the short-term on on most routes if the cops got onboard with enforcement.
There are 3 recent/in-progress expansion projects. BRT to York U, Spadina subway extension, and Eglinton LRT. Eglinton is somewhere between mini-metro and LRT.
Also planned was a BRT to Finch from Steeles which got eliminated over the excitement of a Yonge subway extension. Subway at all cost crowd gets a lot of good improvements delayed or cancelled.
Some politicians recently went crazy with LRT but drawing subway lines across Sheppard and Finch was just as bad. What the TTC is actually building is a mix.
Again, I do agree BRT (2 dedicated lanes, center of the street) doesn't get the love it should from the TTC but I think spending $600M on a bus line is more challenging politically than dropping $1B on LRT.
$600M goes to new vehicles, a storage yard/garage ($100M alone for this item), land expropriations and street widening/rebuilding intersections, and underground connections at subway stations. If you can skip all this both LRT and BRT get much much cheaper to build.
The "bring back the bus" crowd that shows up for LRT meetings rarely means dedicated lanes; they want a bus running in mixed traffic with street-side bus bays for loading/unloading and for buses to yeild to traffic. I don't think they'll be much happier with a BRT implementation; so the opposition will be just as strong but without as many people on the pro side.
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JayBeeGooner
Active Member
If the new mantra was LRT and nothing else, what's with the all talk about the DRL, and Yonge extension?
nfitz
Superstar
What new mantra? The DRL and Yonge extension have been discussed for years. Even Miller and Giambrone discussed them. Giambrone even said that TTC would have to start the DRL in 2018.
JayBeeGooner
Active Member
Fair enough, ssiguy's comment is not valid. Toronto doesn't have a new LRT only mantra, and never did.
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BurlOak
Senior Member
There is no DRL plan. The plan is put the priority on 6 to 10 LRT lines. Granted there were a few BRT lines. I think the Yonge extension was the provinces idea and not TTC, although I may be wrong.
ssiguy2
Senior Member
I find it interesting that despite all the LRT fans at the TTC, the only one that is going ahead is the one that is underground.
I also find it interesting how the residents of the old city of Toronto constantly state LRT is fine for the burbs but if someone in the burbs was to suggest that a complete ROW down Queen and up Pape would be fine for DRL all hell would breaks loose.
Finch does not need a TTC LRT route but rather affordable and truly rapid transit for the corridor and in that case the situation is ridiculously easy..........Finch Hydro BRT.
I also find it interesting how the residents of the old city of Toronto constantly state LRT is fine for the burbs but if someone in the burbs was to suggest that a complete ROW down Queen and up Pape would be fine for DRL all hell would breaks loose.
Finch does not need a TTC LRT route but rather affordable and truly rapid transit for the corridor and in that case the situation is ridiculously easy..........Finch Hydro BRT.
rbt
Senior Member
Can you list off the 6 to 10 lines? Perhaps you're thinking province wide (Ottawa LRT, Kitchener/Waterloo, Hurontario)?
The Yonge extension has nearly as much engineering work completed as Finch. The DRL has as much work done on it as Don Mills and Jane.
TTC has considered pre-building, out of the cities budget, part of the Yonge extension. Fully funded is the provinces idea but the TTC has a strong interest in tunnels to Steeles. This is something Ford canned as it was in the 10 year capital plan until Ford required reductions in capital spending.
Sheppard and Eglinton are the only LRT projects which are ready to go. Everything else is speculation.
If you count the SRT then I'm going to count the $2B that has been sunk into the Yonge line over the last 5 years for capacity upgrades (rolling stock, new signalling system including automated driving, new control room, ...). The SRT plan is basically to keep what we already have functional.
The focus is execution on the TTC is Spadina Extension, Union Station 2nd platform, Eglinton Line, Queen's Quay rebuild (basic rebuild as far as TTC goes), replacement downtown trams, and new articulated buses.
Sheppard, SRT, and Finch are wholly Metrolinx's responsibility and I think only 1 of them will actually get built. TTC is offering advice and consulting.
The DRL (and/or additional Yonge capacity) really is the TTC's top priority for a major future project and with Metrolinx taking over other pieces it would have been under Giambrone as well.
Jane and Don Mills didn't get off the "wouldn't it be nice" board. York Region will have LRT on Highway 7 before WWLRT gets anywhere.
East Bayfront really only works as as tram or trolly bus. The tunnel would be too long for diesel and surface streets at Front & Bay too congested for a surface route to be functional as turnaround times at Union Station would be 30% of the total run-time for the route.
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M II A II R II K
Senior Member
There's ARL opening soon too.
nfitz
Superstar
Not sure what the 6 to 10 lines are. The only suburban ones still being studied are those that are funded: Eglinton, Sheppard East, Finch West, and the SRT upgrade/extension. The DRL work is ahead of the other 4 lines - see the plan on the TTC website - http://www.ttc.ca/About_the_TTC/Pro...ntown_Rapid_Transit_Expansion_Study/index.jsp
Yonge is being pushed by York Region, but TTC has also been a proponent. See the project page on the TTC website - http://www.ttc.ca/About_the_TTC/Projects_and_initiatives/Yonge_subway_extension/index.jsp - note that the Toronto city council approved this back in 2008 under that subway-obsessed Mayor Miller.
BurlOak
Senior Member
GenerationW
Senior Member
In 2009 he said the TTC's priority was Transit City, and would consider looking into the DRL in 2018.
DKsan
Active Member
On Aerobus, the Region of Waterloo studied it as an option for their Central Transit Corridor.
KWC RT options, page 106.
They did it on the insistence of a retired UW civil eng. prof who just won't shut up about Aerobus, even though the regional planners have said it won't really work in KWC.
ssiguy2
Senior Member
I could definately see the Aerobus being very effective along current Hydro corridors. In fact considering the infrastructure it would probably fit more into the urban enviornment and be the least visually intrusive of all technology choice.............due to the current Hydro line you wouldn't really notice it.
I mentioned the SkyTrolley years ago on this site and of course I was laughed at but I still think it would be the best fir for many suburban roadways like Finch. The stations can meld in very well with the surrounding urban landscape, far better than standard BRT or LRT stations as they are , quite literally, part of th existing building infrastructure. It would also be very to get different businesses or local Business Improvement Areas to finance the station due to the large amount of electronic advertising that can be incorporated into the system unlike BRT or LRT stations particularily if they are in the middle of the roadway.
As we know, the stations themselves can be more expensive to build than the actual rail itself. That would be a huge cost savings and made better with the fact that the building of the system would be easy, quick, and far less disruptive than LRT which is going to play havac on the road network and infuriate local businesses and citizens especially when they find out that the so-called rapid transit route won't be mcuh faster than their current bus and a lot slower than a easy to build BRT. SkyTrolley would be true grade separated transit and have far higher capacity than any of the current lines save Eglinton and Eglinton would only have higher capacity if they use 100 meter trains which is going to take place for a long time.
I think the total dollar value would probably be similar to TC at-grade LRT but but there would be a FAR, FAR, FAR better chance of getting local businesses to contribute to their stations due to advertising revenue or PPP as it could gain the ad revenue and the line is automated which makes them much more appealing to private companies.
This is also not a "new" technology, infact it is quite an old one. Really only the stations are different {and they don't have to be if the city just wanted to build standard elevated stations at certain locations} as this is just an update of the Wuppertal Monorail which has been running without incident and with not one accident since 1902. Despite being in Wuppertal in the populas and industrial Rhine Valley of Germany which was flattened in the was if was the ONLY rail system in the city that continued to operate throughout. There are also several successful "suspended monorail" systems operating in Japan.
I mentioned the SkyTrolley years ago on this site and of course I was laughed at but I still think it would be the best fir for many suburban roadways like Finch. The stations can meld in very well with the surrounding urban landscape, far better than standard BRT or LRT stations as they are , quite literally, part of th existing building infrastructure. It would also be very to get different businesses or local Business Improvement Areas to finance the station due to the large amount of electronic advertising that can be incorporated into the system unlike BRT or LRT stations particularily if they are in the middle of the roadway.
As we know, the stations themselves can be more expensive to build than the actual rail itself. That would be a huge cost savings and made better with the fact that the building of the system would be easy, quick, and far less disruptive than LRT which is going to play havac on the road network and infuriate local businesses and citizens especially when they find out that the so-called rapid transit route won't be mcuh faster than their current bus and a lot slower than a easy to build BRT. SkyTrolley would be true grade separated transit and have far higher capacity than any of the current lines save Eglinton and Eglinton would only have higher capacity if they use 100 meter trains which is going to take place for a long time.
I think the total dollar value would probably be similar to TC at-grade LRT but but there would be a FAR, FAR, FAR better chance of getting local businesses to contribute to their stations due to advertising revenue or PPP as it could gain the ad revenue and the line is automated which makes them much more appealing to private companies.
This is also not a "new" technology, infact it is quite an old one. Really only the stations are different {and they don't have to be if the city just wanted to build standard elevated stations at certain locations} as this is just an update of the Wuppertal Monorail which has been running without incident and with not one accident since 1902. Despite being in Wuppertal in the populas and industrial Rhine Valley of Germany which was flattened in the was if was the ONLY rail system in the city that continued to operate throughout. There are also several successful "suspended monorail" systems operating in Japan.
CDL.TO
Moderator
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