Lack of meaningful Passenger Rail service outside the Quebec-Windsor Corridor

[Urban Sky]

Interesting developments regarding trains in Alberta.

Danielle Smith, transportation minister in Calgary for passenger rail forum

Premier Danielle Smith and her minister of transportation spoke at a passenger rail forum in Calgary on Friday, adding more speculation about what could be in store for travel options for Albertans in the years ahead.

calgary.ctvnews.ca

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/calgary/alberta-passenger-rail-plan-1.7391158

Alberta government wants Calgary to have their own "Toronto style" Union Station.

'Walking and chewing bubble gum': Province moves closer to new Green Line and commuter rail for Calgary - LiveWire Calgary

It’s full steam ahead for rail in Alberta, with the province engaging in full scale discussions with industry and municipalities over the future of light and heavy rail transit. Part of those conversations include Calgary’s Green Line, which according to Minister of Transportation and Economic...

livewirecalgary.com

The only thing missing would be an actual passenger rail corridor. And indeed, it would be ironic if the entry of a Conservative givernment and their elimination of the Canada Infrastructure Bank would delay the obvious first such corridor: an airport-to-downtown link…

 

[ARG1]

The only thing missing would be an actual passenger rail corridor. And indeed, it would be ironic if the entry of a Conservative givernment and their elimination of the Canada Infrastructure Bank would delay the obvious first such corridor: an airport-to-downtown link…

They launched a public survey regarding this 2 days ago, and also hosted a consultation conference with international experts that same day.

Survey: https://www.alberta.ca/passenger-rail-engagement

Conference Article: https://calgary.citynews.ca/2024/11/22/alberta-passenger-rail-consultation/

Reminder for those who missed it, this is their current crayon of what they want to build:

 

[micheal_can]

They launched a public survey regarding this 2 days ago, and also hosted a consultation conference with international experts that same day.

Survey: https://www.alberta.ca/passenger-rail-engagement

Conference Article: https://calgary.citynews.ca/2024/11/22/alberta-passenger-rail-consultation/

Reminder for those who missed it, this is their current crayon of what they want to build:
View attachment 614556

With reconstruction going on, I am surprised they did not also add Jasper to this.

 

[ARG1]

With reconstruction going on, I am surprised they did not also add Jasper to this.

This is the same map that was first shown off back in May, so this was before Jasper burned down.

As for why Jasper isn't on here, I imagine its simply because the Canadian already exists to serve Edmonton <--> Jasper. Now obviously I'd love for a province run service to be added to the plan so that we can have more than just 2 trains per week, but as it stands I don't see the province wanting to duplicate existing services, over adding services to towns/cities that don't yet have rail connections.

 

[nfitz]

As for why Jasper isn't on here, I imagine its simply because the Canadian already exists to serve Edmonton <--> Jasper. Now obviously I'd love for a province run service to be added to the plan so that we can have more than just 2 trains per week, but as it stands I don't see the province wanting to duplicate existing services, over adding services to towns/cities that don't yet have rail connections.

Jasper is the same track as Grande Prairie for the first 250 km. I'd think the question is why aren't the other tracks there. Or why the southern regional rail lines don't enter Calgary.

The answer is likely simply that it's a low-quality graphic with little real meaning.

 

[micheal_can]

Jasper is the same track as Grande Prairie for the first 250 km. I'd think the question is why aren't the other tracks there. Or why the southern regional rail lines don't enter Calgary.

The answer is likely simply that it's a low-quality graphic with little real meaning.

So, it could just be a graphic of potential places, but the actual study areas would include things we have thought of?

 

[ARG1]

Jasper is the same track as Grande Prairie for the first 250 km.

I actually didn't know that - that does make this quite odd. I do wonder if they're eyeing a different alignment though since the existing alignment along the foot of the mountain seems very windy and indirect. Will make what is a 400km distance as the crow flies even longer and less attractive.

I'd think the question is why aren't the other tracks there. Or why the southern regional rail lines don't enter Calgary.

I don't think the map means that the lines to Medicine Hat and Lethbridge will terminate at Okotoks, forcing a linear transfer to reach downtown. Its far more likely that the map means that the lines to Airdrie and Okotoks will be high frequency/core urban rail, meanwhile limited trains and services will travel beyond to the aforementioned cities.

The answer is likely simply that it's a low-quality graphic with little real meaning.

We're not cherry picking minute details as if their representative of detailed design, but rather critiquing the actual info that the map is trying to tell us, ie, where are the trains going. The point of this map is to show where the government wants to build rail lines, and there is no mention of Jasper anywhere on it.

 

[lenaitch]

Without some more details, or at least a better graphic, it might be that the proponents don't see Jasper as a viable regional rail destination. Both Jasper and Banff are inside national parks so are limited in growth potential. Jasper is over three hours away with little in the way of growth outside of the Greater Edmonton area. Banff is about half the distance (and about twice the population) with Canmore as a growth centre enroute.

 

[micheal_can]

Without some more details, or at least a better graphic, it might be that the proponents don't see Jasper as a viable regional rail destination. Both Jasper and Banff are inside national parks so are limited in growth potential. Jasper is over three hours away with little in the way of growth outside of the Greater Edmonton area. Banff is about half the distance (and about twice the population) with Canmore as a growth centre enroute.

If the goal is to help remove cars from those National Parks, then having an HSR to them is a good start. That is why tying it in with the reconstruction of Jasper would benefit both. Banff and Jasper o have regular transit. If the HSR is done right, they could work with the transit agencies to improve the service to the busier places, negating the need for a car.

 

[dowlingm]

I actually didn't know that - that does make this quite odd. I do wonder if they're eyeing a different alignment though since the existing alignment along the foot of the mountain seems very windy and indirect. Will make what is a 400km distance as the crow flies even longer and less attractive.

There is the route through St Albert to
Kaybob (Sangudo Subdivision) which ends about 50km from the line to Grande Prairie but zone speeds are 15-30mph. Seems like you could do a lot with the mainline route for the cash you would need to drop on rehabbing and extending that subdivision, and result in maybe the same travel time.

The alternative would be the CN Smoky sub to Falher/Girouxville, rebuild the NAR alignment to Rycroft and south from there to Grand Prairie. But doubtless a lot of work would be needed to make that route fit for purpose also.

 

[Sauga89]

Jasper is the same track as Grande Prairie for the first 250 km. I'd think the question is why aren't the other tracks there. Or why the southern regional rail lines don't enter Calgary.

The answer is likely simply that it's a low-quality graphic with little real meaning.

There's also a small outside advocacy group I ran across called Alberta Regional Rail which has some better graphics. It's not a government source, so the actual plans are likely different, but it wouldn't shock me if it had loosely inspired some of the province's plans. There are suggestions for routes, station locations, ridership projections, fares, and even proposed schedules. I found it an interesting exploration of what's possible, even if the government goes in a different direction.

 

[micheal_can]

Something I was wondering was how many flights between /Calgary and Edmonton. The link shows that 13-14 daily flights between them. Add to that the distance and this would be a no brainier for an HSR route. The question is whether the costs of it would be viable.
For context, Toronto Pearson - Ottawa is 16 and Toronto Pearson - Montreal is 21-26. Ottawa - Montreal is 4-5. Realize that Toronto to Montreal is almost twice the distance than Calgary to Edmonton, but can take care of Ottawa.

https://www.flightsfrom.com/YYC-YEG

https://www.flightsfrom.com/YYZ-YOW

https://www.flightsfrom.com/YYZ-YUL

https://www.flightsfrom.com/YOW-YUL

 

[MisterF]

Something I was wondering was how many flights between /Calgary and Edmonton. The link shows that 13-14 daily flights between them. Add to that the distance and this would be a no brainier for an HSR route. The question is whether the costs of it would be viable.
For context, Toronto Pearson - Ottawa is 16 and Toronto Pearson - Montreal is 21-26. Ottawa - Montreal is 4-5. Realize that Toronto to Montreal is almost twice the distance than Calgary to Edmonton, but can take care of Ottawa.

https://www.flightsfrom.com/YYC-YEG

https://www.flightsfrom.com/YYZ-YOW

https://www.flightsfrom.com/YYZ-YUL

https://www.flightsfrom.com/YOW-YUL

Don't forget Billy Bishop. Including all four major airports in the Toronto-Ottawa-Montreal corridor there are 57-72 daily flights according to that website.

 

[micheal_can]

Don't forget Billy Bishop. Including all four major airports in the Toronto-Ottawa-Montreal corridor there are 57-72 daily flights according to that website.

There is a high demand for HSR it it is built right. Even if we say HSR will run once an hour, it has the potential of taking many of these flights away.

Back out of the Corridor ...
Interesting, there are more flights between Regina and Calgary than Regina and Saskatoon.

 

[ARG1]

Interesting, there are more flights between Regina and Calgary than Regina and Saskatoon.

Wait, you're surprised that there are more flights between Regina and the 3rd largest city in the country, compared to Regina and a city that's roughly the size of Vaughan and only 2.5 hours away by car? There's a chance that the car is faster than flying when you factor in getting from the airport to your destination, plus the time waiting at the airport.

Meanwhile, driving from Regina to Calgary would be like driving from Toronto to QC. Sure you could do it, but its easily outside the comfortable driving range for many people.