King Street (Streetcar Transit Priority)

[DSC]

I was just on king Street on the 503 Kingston road streetcar and I can honestly see why cars are going through without turning off, with all of the cluter on the street now between either TTC streetcar stops, art pieces or restaurant patios it's next to impossible for a driver to be able to get into the right turn lane before they have to turn right off of the street. The city need to rethink how they have it laid out before they make it permanent.

The City plans to work and consult on improvements prior to the rebuild - scheduled for 2023. That said, there really are VERY few cars going straight through on King now compared to before.

 

[EastYorkTTCFan]

The City plans to work and consult on improvements prior to the rebuild - scheduled for 2023. That said, there really are VERY few cars going straight through on King now compared to before.

Every car I saw went through and none of them paid any attention to signs saying otherwise.

 

[nfitz]

Every car I saw went through and none of them paid any attention to signs saying otherwise.

Odd - most cars I see turn. And most cars that used to be on King, simply aren't there in the first place, as they never get on.

Though I don't see how moving lanes is an issue - it's not like there's already traffic in that lane, if it's blocked by street furniture. Signage perhaps more so.

 

[youngblood]

Lol.. I saw this tweet below and went to go dig up this thread. Based on the last few posts looks like nothing has changed.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1552778286790582273

 

[DSC]

Lol.. I saw this tweet below and went to go dig up this thread. Based on the last few posts looks like nothing has changed.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1552778286790582273

Yes, very little (no) enforcement but this is NOT on the King streetcar route so really should be posted in the St Lawrence thread. There is a post on it in BlogTO today.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

Has the City ever addressed why King doesn't have bike lanes? Roncesvalles has both separated bike lanes and CafeTO patios, and that street is narrower than much of King Street.

 

[lead82]

Laziness. Why King St is still in pilot mode and not a permanent solution with bike lanes and something like Roncesvalles design.

 

[DSC]

Laziness. Why King St is still in pilot mode and not a permanent solution with bike lanes and something like Roncesvalles design.

Though I would also like to see King Street rebuilt, the original plan was to do this in 2023 as the streetcar tracks (top layer) need to be replaced. Because of other work (e.g. new tracks on Adelaide) I think the tracks are not now scheduled until 2024.. As part of the idea on King is to have proper (permanent) in-road patios I think bike lanes are really not feasible and Adelaide & Richmond are very close by. There really is a limit to what can be squeezed into a very limited ROW.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

Though I would also like to see King Street rebuilt, the original plan was to do this in 2023 as the streetcar tracks (top layer) need to be replaced. Because of other work (e.g. new tracks on Adelaide) I think the tracks are not now scheduled until 2024.. As part of the idea on King is to have proper (permanent) in-road patios I think bike lanes are really not feasible and Adelaide & Richmond are very close by. There really is a limit to what can be squeezed into a very limited ROW.

How is it possible to fit it on Roncesvalles, but not King?

The bike lanes would fit if they simply reduced the sizes of the patios.

This feels like a choice to prioritize patio space over cycling.

Given the proximity of Richmond and Adelaie, I suppose it’s a defendable decision, but it’s definitely not the case that bike lanes would be impossible on King.

 

[LNahid2000]

How is it possible to fit it on Roncesvalles, but not King?

The bike lanes would fit if they simply reduced the sizes of the patios.

This feels like a choice to prioritize patio space over cycling.

Given the proximity of Richmond and Adelaie, I suppose it’s a defendable decision, but it’s definitely not the case that bike lanes would be impossible on King.

Roncesvalles doesn't have separated bike lanes except for in short sections near the streetcar stops:

Google Maps

Find local businesses, view maps and get driving directions in Google Maps.

goo.gl

 

[nfitz]

Though I would also like to see King Street rebuilt, the original plan was to do this in 2023 as the streetcar tracks (top layer) need to be replaced. Because of other work (e.g. new tracks on Adelaide) I think the tracks are not now scheduled until 2024.. As part of the idea on King is to have proper (permanent) in-road patios I think bike lanes are really not feasible and Adelaide & Richmond are very close by. There really is a limit to what can be squeezed into a very limited ROW.

That schedule came out before the Ontario Line timeframe was finalized. With Queen Street being closed from 2023 to 2027, I don't see it realistic that King Street get it's tracks replaced until 2028.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

Honestly, I think Toronto should just be bold and install high-quality separated bike lanes across the entirety of the streetcar network, even if it's at the cost of removing parking and driving lanes.

The streetcar corridors are ideal for cycling. All the streetcar corridors are flat, crosstown routes with a multitude of small and major destinations. This are ideal conditions for cycling.

We have a massive GreenP network Downtown. Dedicating this much street space to parking makes no sense.

In many places, this means traffic will be reduced to a single lane. Some people will be fatalistic about the traffic impacts, but I don't think it will be bad. Realistically, most of the streetcar network is already de-facto one-lane operation anyways, due the the multitude of obstacles in shoulder lanes (constrction, Ubers, illegal parking, etc...). And as we've seen over and over again, traffic demand tends to "evaporate" once you remove traffic lanes.

This might lead to more reliable streetcar operations as well, since a single lane of traffic leaves cars with no opportunity to "squeeze" in front of streetcars. It also means that traffic will no longer be held up by cars trying to park.

Like the King Street Priority Corridor, this could also be rolled out on a trial basis. Just lay down some flexiposts, and see what happens over a year or two. We can always revert to the status-quo in the unlikely scenario that the impacts are awful.

This makes our streets significantly safer as well, since a single lane inherently calms traffic.

Realistically, after some whining, I think drivers would quickly get used to the new norm of parking at GreenP lots. Fewer drivers might come Downtown, but that's fine.

The network effects would be huge. This is the kind of thing that could double Toronto's cycling network utilization overnight. Toronto's cycling network would rank amongst the best in the world.

With the size of Downtown Toronto literally doubling, we'll inevitably have to prioritize streetcars and cycling movements over all else. Streetcars and cycling are the only way we'll be able to move people across Downtown effectively. They are essentially the circulatory system of Downtown.

This all is really easy to do. The only thing stopping us is fear of the car lobby.

 

[drum118]

How is it possible to fit it on Roncesvalles, but not King?

The bike lanes would fit if they simply reduced the sizes of the patios.

This feels like a choice to prioritize patio space over cycling.

Given the proximity of Richmond and Adelaie, I suppose it’s a defendable decision, but it’s definitely not the case that bike lanes would be impossible on King.

Given the fact Queen is close for 7 years building the OL, major issue for everyone.

Since patio's are now to be allow in the curb lanes, how do you expect lanes be built around them?? How do you reduce the width of the patio's when it hard to put one in without major effect on the sidewalk?

Not every street can have bike lanes for various reasons and King is one of those streets.

Sorry, but this one case I don't support the cycles needs at all when the space should be going to wider sidewalks. I have no issue removing all on street parking that should be use for traffic only and leave the tracks to streetcars only like Europe.

As for rebuilding King and with Queen Close, you can do a block or 2 at a time with one side being done first and then switching over to the other side before moving onto the next blocks. Would see traffic either going in one direction or both direction as single lanes.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

Since patio's are now to be allow in the curb lanes, how do you expect lanes be built around them?? How do you reduce the width of the patio's when it hard to put one in without major effect on the sidewalk?

The patios on King Street feel... exceptionally large. Danforth and Roncesvalles have smaller patios that are still functional, while allowing for bike lanes. We simply decided to prioritize patios over cycling.

And to be fair, I think it's defendable decision. King is a very important cultural corridor, so dedicating that space to larger patios and streetscaping is reasonable, particularly given the proximity of Richmond + Adelaide. We can do a lot to make King magnificent with the amount of space we have to work with.

I just hope that elsewhere in the city, we decide to give more of that space to cyclists. Especially as RapidTO is implemented across the network over the decade.

 

[Northern Light]

Honestly, I think Toronto should just be bold and install high-quality separated bike lanes across the entirety of the streetcar network, even if it's at the cost of removing parking and driving lanes.

The streetcar corridors are ideal for cycling. All the streetcar corridors are flat, crosstown routes with a multitude of small and major destinations. This are ideal conditions for cycling.

We have a massive GreenP network Downtown. Dedicating this much street space to parking makes no sense.

In many places, this means traffic will be reduced to a single lane. Some people will be fatalistic about the traffic impacts, but I don't think it will be bad. Realistically, most of the streetcar network is already de-facto one-lane operation anyways, due the the multitude of obstacles in shoulder lanes (constrction, Ubers, illegal parking, etc...). And as we've seen over and over again, traffic demand tends to "evaporate" once you remove traffic lanes.

This might lead to more reliable streetcar operations as well, since a single lane of traffic leaves cars with no opportunity to "squeeze" in front of streetcars. It also means that traffic will no longer be held up by cars trying to park.

Like the King Street Priority Corridor, this could also be rolled out on a trial basis. Just lay down some flexiposts, and see what happens over a year or two. We can always revert to the status-quo in the unlikely scenario that the impacts are awful.

This makes our streets significantly safer as well, since a single lane inherently calms traffic.

Realistically, after some whining, I think drivers would quickly get used to the new norm of parking at GreenP lots. Fewer drivers might come Downtown, but that's fine.

The network effects would be huge. This is the kind of thing that could double Toronto's cycling network utilization overnight. Toronto's cycling network would rank amongst the best in the world.

With the size of Downtown Toronto literally doubling, we'll inevitably have to prioritize streetcars and cycling movements over all else. Streetcars and cycling are the only way we'll be able to move people across Downtown effectively. They are essentially the circulatory system of Downtown.

This all is really easy to do. The only thing stopping us is fear of the car lobby.

Not as simple as all that; but for the record, bike lanes are not coming to King ST.

Do remember, they are coming to Wellington, in addition to already being on Richmond, Adelaide, Shuter, Gerrard, Wellesley, Harbord and Bloor. As well as Harbour and Queen's Quay/MGT at the south end.

While currently, there are no bike lanes contemplated for Front, this will be looked at before King would.

North-south, based on my discussions, Church is being looked at seriously north of Carlton. Spadina likely won't be considered until it comes up for reconstruction, but its on the radar, and when the time is right, bike lanes will return to Jarvis.