King Street (Streetcar Transit Priority)

[spmarshall]

Fabien Siebert, owner of French restaurant Marcel, blames the bad traffic on King Street on a bottleneck of streetcars at Charlotte Street and King, where streetcars turning up Spadina Street get stuck behind streetcars going west on King.

I agree, this is a problem. It is exasperated by left-turns from westbound King to southbound Spadina, which are often done illegally. But Richmond/Adelaide, which have been sacrificed to the cars (I am not arguing in favour of changing this at this point), are great alternatives. Wellington does the trick too for most of the Entertainment District, as does Front.

Toronto does have a very easy grid, and it helps too that with few exceptions (Passmore Ave, gaps in Lawrence, and across Humber north of 401), we have the concession system retained or improved across the city.

 

[Suicidal Gingerbread Man]

As far as I'm concerned, this is an absolute no-brainer for the TTC. I wonder if the plan on the table still has leaving one lane open for deliveries, as we see in this plan, looking west from John.

Just imagine the extra sidewalk cafe space. This could really improve the experience for those restaurants on the south side of King.

 

[unimaginative2]

I think that banning cars and parking will be devastating to the business along King. I think that a reasonable compromise would be to take two lanes of both King and Queen for streetcars, and then make the remaining two lanes a one-way pair. One of the two lanes could be retained for parking in off-peak periods. This current plan to have a single one-way lane alternating every block is crazy, in my view. If a delivery is being made, won't the truck completely obstruct the one lane?

 

[AlchemisTO]

I'm on the fence with this proposal. Transit malls in North American cities usually suck for urban vibrancy, running the gamut from mere disappointments (Granville in Vancouver) to colossal failures (Main St., Buffalo). I know that Toronto is a bigger, brasher, more resilient city than any of the other places in NA that have experimented with a transit mall but, still, what guarantees do we have that King street won't suffer the same fate?

 

[yyzer]

Beginning to have doubts about the wisdom of streetcar ROWs....they are pedestrian unfriendly, cyclist unfriendly, and they absolutely screw up vehicular traffic. They hurt businesses along the route, and may actually put them out of business during long construction times. I am beginning to think that the only "friendly" they are is "TTC-friendly"....

Too many people trust that what's good for the TTC is also good for the city....I don't think this is automatically the case. We may come to regret the day that we blindly supported streetcar ROWs.

 

[unimaginative2]

I'll start supporting them once they actually start decreasing travel time and increasing reliability. Spadina's an abject failure on both counts, and St. Clair is already a failure on the former, while the latter remains to be seen. It's possible to run a fast, reliable streetcar service in a private ROW - countless cities do it all around the world - but the TTC needs to learn how before it starts going off and building more. I feel a bit cheated by the TTC on St. Clair. I went to all those meetings, wrote letters, even argued with store owners about the merits of the proposal. Now, it's being built and the only changes to the service seem to be reduced frequency.

It seems to me that making King and Queen a one-way pair makes far more sense than this proposal to effectively turn King into a transit mall. Yes, Toronto may be more vibrant than Buffalo, but transit malls have never been successful anywhere in North America with a cold climate. Look at when it was tried on Yonge Street. While a transit mall might not kill Queen, King Street is much more fragile, and I think that it could turn into another Richmond or Adelaide.

 

[Chuck100]

But Richmond/Adelaide, which have been sacrificed to the cars...

Oh really? The first thing you notice about these streets is that they house a massive collection of warehouses. Look at the architecture. Which do you think came first, the development of these warehouses (which happenned to force out all other businesses, residents, and street life), or the conversion to one way?

If you actually sit down and think about it, you will realize that these streets were void of life 100 years ago, while they operated as two way streets, while transit use was twice as high per capita, and while the automobile population of Toronto was zero. Located between King and Queen meant that Richmond and Adelaide have operated as back alleys since day one.

Now let's look at other cities. St. Catherine is Montreal's most important urban street. Want to guess how many ways its traffic flows? Next head down to New York. Describe a typical street there.

I completely support turning King and Queen into 4 lane one way streets. With parking allowed in off peak hours, there would be no impact on their vibrancy, only a large improvement in the flow of traffic.

 

[unimaginative2]

Great points, Chuck 100. I'd also add that parts of Richmond and Adelaide see some of the heaviest pedestrian traffic in the city on Friday and Saturday nights.

I would only support converting King and Queen to one-way streets if two of the lanes were taken for streetcars and the remaining two were used for a street. Parking would be permitted on one of the two lanes outside of peak period/peak direction.

 

[adma]

I completely support turning King and Queen into 4 lane one way streets. With parking allowed in off peak hours, there would be no impact on their vibrancy, only a large improvement in the flow of traffic.

Then why has Hamilton converted some of its one-ways (like Main St) back to two-way?

 

[Chuck100]

When I was in Hamilton a couple weeks ago, Main St. was one way throughout the entire downtown area, and the signal timing was brilliant. Even if it had returned to two-way in downtown, I'm sure that last on the list of reasons was to improve the pedestrian atmosphere.

Don't use Toronto as an example as other factors led to our one way streets being ghost towns. Overall, I don't think there is much if any correlation between one way streets, two way streets, and pedestrian activity.

 

[bizorky]

Then why has Hamilton converted some of its one-ways (like Main St) back to two-way?

And wasn't there talk about turning Adelaide back into a two-way street?

 

[ummagumma66]

Calgary Has 7 Ave all the way along the downdown core, from 4 st SE to 10 st SW as a transit only zone, it seems to work quite well, it also allows for EMS, Fire and Police to get through the core quite quickly

 

[unimaginative2]

Then why has Hamilton converted some of its one-ways (like Main St) back to two-way?

They haven't done it yet, and do you actually think that it will suddenly turn into a vibrant pedestrian street? They made Duke and Charles two way in Kitchener and they certainly haven't changed too much.

Making King and Queen one way will likely not help the businesses, but it'd certainly hurt them a lot less than closing the streets entirely.

 

[adma]

Mea culpa--I said Main St when I meant James St in Hamilton...

 

[Chuck100]

And wasn't there talk about turning Adelaide back into a two-way street?

It is the land use along these streets and nothing else that causes them to be dead zones. Does running both ways help bring life to the stretch of King between University and Yonge? How much of a street scence do you find along Bay St. north of College? You're dreaming if you think converting Richmond and Adelaide to two way streets will solve anything.