nfitz
Superstar
And yet you said that the Ottawa design is only slightly better.
Everyone? I only responded to your comparison, noting that if Ottawa is only slightly better for 4 times the cost ...
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Waterloo Region Transit Developments (ION LRT, new terminal, GRT buses)
Steve X
Senior Member
Ottawa's is designed as mass transit can could reach a line capacity of over 20,000 pphpd with 2x300 people per train at 105 sec headways. The ION however could only reach 6,600 pphpd with 2x165 people per train at 3 min headways. The 4 times the cost does justify 3 times capacity plus a tunnel through the downtown core. At the end of the day, I think both systems are designed correctly.
Both systems are tailored to the demand they're intended to serve. Waterloo building the Confederation Line would have been a massive waste of money, and Ottawa building the Ion would have been an under-build.
In many ways, Ion is much more similar to the N-S LRT plan that Ottawa threw out in 2006 in favour of the current plan.
In many ways, Ion is much more similar to the N-S LRT plan that Ottawa threw out in 2006 in favour of the current plan.
drum118
Superstar
Thats over $12 return on each dollar the region has spent on the line today. Lot better return than the bus system that is in place.
Waterloo Region’s Ion light rail was 43 years in the making
Waterloo Region’s Ion light rail was 43 years in the making
W. K. Lis
Superstar
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timc
New Member
And that doesn't count the infrastructure that was replaced as part of the project before we even got to building rail. That alone is worth the cost that was paid by local government.
drum118
Superstar
June 21
mdrejhon
Senior Member
Great video inside a relatively full vehicle at speed:
Much more comfortable ride as a smartphone standee without all the jostling typical of non-rail vehicles!
It's a fantastic day for Hamilton, because we need to see a great launch (it was!) and our mayor Fred Eisenberger was there.
Hamilton's LRT is a much straighter line than KW with fewer intersections, so our LRT system will allow slightly higher than ION. There's a farside-platform optimized stop at the busiest intersection (King and James) and all the traffic lights will be LRT-priority. It will be almost completely concrete-filled LRT corridor though, so probably speed limit 50kph but will at least be fairly consistently 50kph max most of the way from end-to-end.
On the Hamilton LRT, there's no 90 degree turns except to the MSF. Biggest turn is approximately 20 degrees, at the Gage Park where there's now a stop (formerly there wasn't, but our community successfully advocated for one). I would guesstimate that up to 50% more ppphpd than ION is possible with aggressive traffic-light priority optimization (10,000ppphpd) though we'd also start far lower than that at the beginning. Hamilton's downtown is denser than either of K/W downtowns, so I think the Hamilton LRT is also optimially designed -- a bit more dedicated-corridor than KW, but less dedicated-corridor than Ottawa.
Much more comfortable ride as a smartphone standee without all the jostling typical of non-rail vehicles!
Yes, it makes a whole lot of sense. Ottawa is dense enough to need provisions for subway-league ppphpd capability, while KW won't be.
It's a fantastic day for Hamilton, because we need to see a great launch (it was!) and our mayor Fred Eisenberger was there.
Hamilton's LRT is a much straighter line than KW with fewer intersections, so our LRT system will allow slightly higher than ION. There's a farside-platform optimized stop at the busiest intersection (King and James) and all the traffic lights will be LRT-priority. It will be almost completely concrete-filled LRT corridor though, so probably speed limit 50kph but will at least be fairly consistently 50kph max most of the way from end-to-end.
On the Hamilton LRT, there's no 90 degree turns except to the MSF. Biggest turn is approximately 20 degrees, at the Gage Park where there's now a stop (formerly there wasn't, but our community successfully advocated for one). I would guesstimate that up to 50% more ppphpd than ION is possible with aggressive traffic-light priority optimization (10,000ppphpd) though we'd also start far lower than that at the beginning. Hamilton's downtown is denser than either of K/W downtowns, so I think the Hamilton LRT is also optimially designed -- a bit more dedicated-corridor than KW, but less dedicated-corridor than Ottawa.
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mdrejhon
Senior Member
robmausser
Senior Member
Man, the speed limits are painful. Who decided on this?
Id rather take the bus honestly.
drum118
Superstar
You think it slow on these video, wait tell I get the other 20 up. Shoot station to station videos from the car we were on. She said the same thing about speed and not a transit person.
Lots of issues with lights and gates to the point they should been down long before the car was there to the point the car either had to slow down or stop. Way too much idle time at stops and most likely opening safety needs.
I found the line from day one going too far out of the way to service the cities, the riders and costing more than it should to be built.
I have heard there was a narrow miss of a head on collision caused by an SUV using the track illegal while the train was arriving at a station.
Its been a long time since I been up in the area and saw a lot of new development taking place along the line or a block or two away that wasn't on the books I saw during my visits in the past, with more coming. Some real good density for the area and the line.
timio
Active Member
Latest reports have it at over $3b investment along the line so far with more on the works. From that perspective, ION is already successful.
drum118
Superstar
As I noted above, that works out to be about $12 return on each dollar the region spent on the line which is line with most LRT system compare to buses. Very few bus lines including BRT get close to $10 and more in the $5 range.
What I saw on our rider for development is way more than my last visit, with more to come.
On the development side its successful, but will have to wait a year to see what the ridership looks like.
robmausser
Senior Member
At least its something that can be fixed. But it needs to be. Dont throw the baby out the with bathwater.
The sections on rail should be 80kmh. The max these units can do.
You tried to save money by using existing rail corridors that are out of the way of density etc. You offset this by creating an express speed service. Not crawling along at 40, 20kmh.
EYorker
New Member
Having had a chance to ride the LRT today, here are some thoughts.
People are indeed very excited for this to finally be running. I'm just as excited for the region to have this wonderful infrastructure, and am disappointed we couldn't have LRT lines like this running all over Toronto by now. A KW resident I was talking to was amazed at how much has changed, and developed since he moved there 8 years ago. Not to mention much more development in the pipeline just due to having the LRT.
Speed, or lack thereof. It's such a shame the speeds are way too low on both the north end PROW, and south end PROW. I hope in time they review the southern PROW section currently at 50 km/h. With a ballasted rail section there, I don't see why it's set so low at 50. I get there are a few driveways, but could gates not be used for protection to speed up the train? 45 minutes to travel the 19 km resulting in a average of 25.3 km/h isn't too bad in transit terms, but there should be some room for improvement.
Signal priority. For the most part, the LRT was given almost absolute priority. However, the street running sections seem to have many intersections that we had to wait for a go signal. Was this by design, or is this still part of "working out the kinks?"
Good old Bombardier quality. By now, we are familiar with the dreaded "door issues." The train I was on caught up the the one in front of us due to "door issues." They were quickly resolved within about 5 minutes, and we held back for about 2 minutes so we weren't riding the train ahead.
Crowds. They weren't as big as expected, but I was down there pretty early. I started at around 10:30 this morning at Conestoga, got to the platform waiting with 3 other people. GRT staff outnumbered us. By the time the train left, it was a full seated load. On the way back, the lines were just starting to thicken around the noon hour at Fairway. I had to wait for the second train. By the time we got back to Conestoga, there was quite a line forming.
Overall, I see this as a big win for the region! It was nice to see everyone on the street and in their cars waving and taking pictures. Quite the celebration if you will!
People are indeed very excited for this to finally be running. I'm just as excited for the region to have this wonderful infrastructure, and am disappointed we couldn't have LRT lines like this running all over Toronto by now. A KW resident I was talking to was amazed at how much has changed, and developed since he moved there 8 years ago. Not to mention much more development in the pipeline just due to having the LRT.
Speed, or lack thereof. It's such a shame the speeds are way too low on both the north end PROW, and south end PROW. I hope in time they review the southern PROW section currently at 50 km/h. With a ballasted rail section there, I don't see why it's set so low at 50. I get there are a few driveways, but could gates not be used for protection to speed up the train? 45 minutes to travel the 19 km resulting in a average of 25.3 km/h isn't too bad in transit terms, but there should be some room for improvement.
Signal priority. For the most part, the LRT was given almost absolute priority. However, the street running sections seem to have many intersections that we had to wait for a go signal. Was this by design, or is this still part of "working out the kinks?"
Good old Bombardier quality. By now, we are familiar with the dreaded "door issues." The train I was on caught up the the one in front of us due to "door issues." They were quickly resolved within about 5 minutes, and we held back for about 2 minutes so we weren't riding the train ahead.
Crowds. They weren't as big as expected, but I was down there pretty early. I started at around 10:30 this morning at Conestoga, got to the platform waiting with 3 other people. GRT staff outnumbered us. By the time the train left, it was a full seated load. On the way back, the lines were just starting to thicken around the noon hour at Fairway. I had to wait for the second train. By the time we got back to Conestoga, there was quite a line forming.
Overall, I see this as a big win for the region! It was nice to see everyone on the street and in their cars waving and taking pictures. Quite the celebration if you will!