Mississauga Hurontario-Main Line 10 LRT | ?m | ?s | Metrolinx

BhadPetrov said:
I wouldn't say Hurontario is sparsely populated at all, maybe compared to Yonge street or something... It's the busiest corridor in Peel and LRT is a good technology to serve it especially from a cost perspective, the stops themselves are already pretty spread out for a lot of the route so quite a few people will still be taking the bus because they have to go somewhere in between stops. I know I will when it opens
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I never said sparsely populated, I said the density is sparse. You have a few towers and then a lot of space, and repeat. As someone else mentioned, something like the Canada Line which has probably about 2x the capacity of the HLRT seems more appropriate.

ericmacm said:
The Hurontario LRT was designed as predominantly a replacement for Mississauga's busiest bus route (19 Hurontario), which runs the entire Hurontario corridor through Mississauga and Brampton, so it needs to go the entire length and have a large amount of stops similar to the bus line. If there were fewer stops, more people would need to take an additional bus to get to where they need to be, since many people would live between stops. The Hurontario corridor is far from sparsely populated either, since it contains dense spots like Cooksvile, MCC, Uptown MCC, Port Credit, and various employment/office park areas.

An elevated metro would in no way be practical for this corridor, as it would be overbuilt and expensive. There is more than enough space to fit an at-grade separated ROW on Hurontario for the LRT trains.
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The Cambie Corridor in Vancouver 100% was less dense than this route when the Canada Line was built and the line has been a huge success. I question whether we really need more local transit (LRT is much closer to a bus than a Metro), rather than actual rapid transit. Should also point out that the Canada Line was similar order of magnitude cost to this project.


NoahB said:
The Metro word was invented by Paris. They use 'tiny' trains (thinner than a streetcar & 90m in length) that frequently run above ground.

Edit: To add, a VAL style system (Grade separated, automated, small trains running at extreme frequencies) is very appropriate for a city like Mississauga or Hamilton. The stations are small and can be cheap to build. Check out the Lille Metro.
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Indeed, the Canada Line does something very similar to VAL - small trains frequently, driving high capacity and really quick service.

afransen said:
Speed is important when converting mode share. When it comes to HuLRT, the number of stops is not too bad. But I worry about the travel speed on a line like this. It is expected to average 28 kph according to Metrolinx. That seems too slow for rapid transit and a lot of users won't be converted from cars when you factor in the added walk and wait times. If you have money you will be inclined to continue to drive. I also worry that we may not do as good a job with signal priority as hoped.

There are no N/S GO links in Peel, and GO does not serve MCC. There is bus service, but that is just as likely to get stuck in traffic.
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I agree, LRT's / Tramways work best in dense corridors, as they tend to have low average speeds.

Undead said:
iirc, 28 km/h is competitive with rush hour driving (about 30 km/h on average in my experience).
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The problem is transit shouldn't just be competitive with driving, should and could very well beat it on speed. Particularly if it was grade separated.
 
aquateam said:
In Ontario we haven't fully appreciated the benefits of elevated transit in the way that Vancouver has and that Montreal has recently discovered.

Personally I think that is 100% the way to go, especially in suburban contexts where setbacks are wide. The cost premium over at-grade LRT isn't that significant once you factor in all the utility relocation involved in LRT, as we can see from comparing Vancouver SkyTrain costs to Ontario LRT costs. Full grade separation means a qualitative improvement in speed (and hence ridership) and allows full automation (allowing significant operating cost savings and negligible marginal cost for improved off-peak frequency.) Costs are slightly more for significantly more benefits.

A lot of the benefits of LRT are independent of the technology itself:
  • Streetscape improvements
  • Upzoning and reduction in parking minimums
  • Reduced traffic lanes
  • Reserved lanes for transit
The Hurontario LRT was developed back when Kathleen Wynne was putting LRTs down every street in Ontario. Overall I think it isn't a bad proposal since it is meant to concentrate development along a corridor, and acts as a "short" connector to two (eventually 3) GO lines and two BRT lines.
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Oh for sure, a massively wide street like Hurontario is not going to be an attractive streetscape LRT or not - it's simply designed to be a major car corridor. Theres lots of width so a median elevated line like what they are doing in Montreal makes a ton of sense. As was mentioned, most of the benefits of the LRT could happen with any kind of transit. It just seems like LRT is rarely used for actual transportation value - be that for capacity or speed. Its always some secondary objective like development etc. The thing is if you want development or nicer streetscapes you could just do what Viva has done (albeit you'd have to actually provide reasonable service), if you want better transportation you could do what the Canada Line did in Richmond.
 
superelevation said:
Should also point out that the Canada Line was similar order of magnitude cost to this project.
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It may be best to use the cost for building such a project here (in Ontario) and now (in 2020) when comparing different options. As others have pointed out, costs have increased significantly since ~2010 and even more here in the GTA.
superelevation said:
The problem is transit shouldn't just be competitive with driving, should and could very well beat it on speed. Particularly if it was grade separated.
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Okay, I'm genuinely curious. What would the average speed of the HuLRT be if it was fully-grade separated (or has 100% signal priority)?
 
jys said:
It may be best to use the cost for building such a project here (in Ontario) and now (in 2020) when comparing different options. As others have pointed out, costs have increased significantly since ~2010 and even more here in the GTA.

Okay, I'm genuinely curious. What would the average speed of the HuLRT be if it was fully-grade separated (or has 100% signal priority)?
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en.wikipedia.org

SkyTrain (Vancouver) - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org en.wikipedia.org

The Millennium Line is 25.5km and has a travel time of 36 minutes, average speed ~42kph with 17 stations. HuLRT is 18 km, 19 stations and has projected to have a travel time of 40 minutes (unproven). So Millennium Line stops at nearly as many stations and cover 7 km more distance in less time than HuLRT.

They recently (completed 2016) extended Millennium Line 11km/6 stations for $1.4B (~130M/km). That extension has a 16 minute travel time, or ~41 kph.


40 kph is attainable, and at reasonable cost. For comparison, HuLRT was awarded for $5.6B, of which $4.6B was to design, build and finance the line ($255M/km). Something is deeply broken with how Ontario is tendering these transit projects. We're getting abysmal value for money. That's aside from poor technology choices.
 
Structural steel up at the Highway 407 MSF.

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Nice shot from 407. At the price they charge to travel that section not worth my time or money to shoot the site from the 407 and leave it to others who use that road in the first place. Best would be going eastbound.

At this point of time, best to shoot from the 407 overpass on Kennedy with a 300+ zoom. More steel up from what I shot over a week ago.
 
SaugeenJunction said:
I’m excited to see track work in the northern sections and the 403 bridge starting construction in 2021!
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Sorry to say it will be in 2022/23 before you see tracks.

I prefer to see tracks between Derry Rd and Steeles first as it will allow on street testing of the new fleet schedule for delivery late 2023/24 at this time. As tracks go south, it will give longer test track to be use and telling cars you are not King of the Road anymore on this road.
 
drum118 said:
Sorry to say it will be in 2022/23 before you see tracks.

I prefer to see tracks between Derry Rd and Steeles first as it will allow on street testing of the new fleet schedule for delivery late 2023/24 at this time. As tracks go south, it will give longer test track to be use and telling cars you are not King of the Road anymore on this road.
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This link says track work will begin as early as Summer 2021!
 
SaugeenJunction said:
This link says track work will begin as early as Summer 2021!
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That what ML is saying not the contractor building it. The last update by the contractor I have, it was 2022. I will know more in Q1 what is taking place in 2021 by the contractor. Where track work could be place in Q3 in 2021 is at the QEW, since the the time frame for this area is under the control of MTO. That work had 2 windows with one in 2021 and the other 2022. Hurontario will be close for 65-72 hours over the Thanksgiving weekend.

With what has to take place at 407 it will be late 2021/22. New off ramp bridges have to be built as well work on the bridge. This could be the area where tacks could show up sooner than later.
 
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drum118 said:
That what ML is saying not the contractor building it. The last update by the contractor I have, it was 2022. I will know more in Q1 what is taking place in 2021 by the contractor. Where track work could place in Q3 in 2021 is at the QEW since the the time frame in under the control of MTO. That work had 2 windows with one in 2021 and the other 2022. Hurontario will be close for 65-72 hours over the Thanksgiving weekend.

With what has to take place at 407 it will be late 2021/22. New off ramp bridges have to be built as well work on the bridge. This could be the area where tacks could show up sooner than later.
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Always appreciate your insight, thanks Drum.
 
Transportfan said:
Odd that the carhouse is being built between the hydro towers and the 407 where there's nothing in between them elsewhere.
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Hydro One will not allow this type of structure in their corridor. The area between the carhouse and the 407 is where the future 407 BRT is to go. The land south of Hydro One corridor is too expensive and a waste of space putting the carhouse there.

Land is set aside at Hurontario for an BRT station that will connect to the LRT. Only when there is an BRT ROW and service that the LRT stop will be built for it.
 
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