Historically African-American (as opposed to Caribbean) community in Toronto -- where are they now?

[wild goose chase]

I know prior to the 1960s many Black Canadians were American in origin but soon numbers from the Caribbean dominated the population of Black Canadians so that relatively few are say descended from third-generation immigrants today.

What happened to the historical African-American neighbourhoods in Toronto? Where were they and what later changes took place? Did many return to the US, spread throughout the Toronto area more broadly or to other Canadian cities, no longer becoming concentrated in any one area, and did African-Americans remaining in the city eventually assimilate to the Caribbean-Canadian and other later waves of more recent Black Canadian communities (this would be the opposite of what happens in the US, when it's later waves of Black immigrants that assimilate to the earlier Black communities).

 

[King of Kensington]

The Black population was very small in Toronto prior to the 1960s, no more than 5000. In the mid-19th century, there was a black population from the US which with a concentration in St. John's Ward (around where City Hall is today), maybe 1000 or so (less than 2% of the population) but its share of the population diminished as the city grew in population (the city's first real growth spurt was in the 1880s) and many returned to the US after the Civil War.

In the early 20th century, there was a modest Caribbean immigration. Former lieutenant governor Lincoln Alexander for example was the son of West Indian immigrants. I would guess that in the 1920s that there was about a 50/50 split between those of Caribbean and the old African American origin population. From say the 1920s to the 1960s the Black population in Toronto was concentrated in the Spadina area, like most of the city's "ethnic" population. There is a Black church in Chinatown on Huron St. that today that dates back to the 19th century (but it moved to its current location in the 50s I believe, it used to be in the Ward). Most of its congregants today I believe are Black Nova Scotians and their descendants.

There are really only two Black communities in Canada where most are of African American origin: in Nova Scotia and the Windsor/Chatham area. Some have ended up in Toronto.

As for the descendants of AAs, I'm not sure if they're really concentrated anywhere today. I doubt more than 5% of Black Torontonians today are of AA, rather than Caribbean or African origin.

 

[wild goose chase]

In the early 20th century, there was a modest Caribbean immigration. Former lieutenant governor Lincoln Alexander for example was the son of West Indian immigrants. I would guess that in the 1920s that there was about a 50/50 split between those of Caribbean and the old African American origin population.

Oh, I didn't realize that Caribbean immigration started so early to Toronto -- I had assumed pre-1960s it was still mainly older African-American communities. I know that New York city got some of that early 20th century West Indian immigration and even today, New York has the largest population of blacks who are from immigrant roots later than the older African-American population, but I believe in the US there is no analogue to how new Toronto's black communities are. I bet in the US there isn't a single major city where the Black community is majority first/second generation (unless it was say a small town that didn't have African-Americans beforehand and received say, Somalian refugees or some other wave of people recently), so a huge contrast to Canada.

 

[wild goose chase]

I assume that this also means that any similarities between Black Canadian and Black American culture would come more from the shared entertainment industry than probably any generational links? I know Drake's roots are African American, but even he brings up an accent influenced by Toronto's Caribbean culture sometimes too.

 

[King of Kensington]

More than 50% of NYC blacks are of Caribbean origin.

NYC differs from say, LA, in that the white and black populations are also largely comprised of immigrants and the children of immigrants. In LA, there are lots of foreign born Hispanics and Asians, but almost all the white and black populations are native born, native parents.

ETA: I'm pretty sure in Miami Caribbean blacks outnumber AAs as well.

 

[wild goose chase]

More than 50% of NYC blacks are of Caribbean origin.

NYC differs from say, LA, in that the white and black populations are also largely comprised of immigrants and the children of immigrants. In LA, there are lots of foreign born Hispanics and Asians, but almost all the white and black populations are native born, native parents.

Oh okay, I didn't know NYC had mostly foreign born or second generation blacks. I still think that no US city has foreign-born outnumbering native born (including native born to immigrant parents). My experience is that even in New York city, people still don't assume a white or black person is foreign born, if they have no non-American accent, the way say, a South Asian or Latin American might be, who often will get asked about it even with no accent. I did live in Connecticut for a little while, and noticed that some people there had Jamaican accents and in that way, sounded more familiar to me as a Torontonian than say, the African-Americans in Chicago. I actually find it pretty hard to find Caribbean food like Jamaican patties in Chicago, compared to Connecticut or New York city.

I get the impression that though Blacks, Asians and Hispanics are all considered visible minorities in the US, it is still the default assumption that almost all the Black Americans in the country except a small fraction have had roots relating to a legacy of slavery within the US (Yes, I know the West Indian blacks also had a legacy of slavery, but discussion in the US focuses on the legacy within the US), and thus I have a feeling that it is much more rude to ask Black Americans about ancestry than other minorities (not that I normally ask anyone about their ancestry unless they choose to bring it up), while Hispanic and Asian-Americans get asked much more about ancestry (eg. "Where did you or your family come from?") so it's really only through stats that I know about what percentage of people are recent immigrants or not. I think it's only in Hawaii that Asian-Americans, and in New Mexico that Hispanic Americans are assumed to be "old stock" and have many generations within the country itself, while this assumption is made of most Black Americans country-wide. I guess this means that many second-generation Black immigrants can also be treated as African-American by many and not get asked about ancestry unless he or she chooses to bring it up.

In Canada, a person who's Black, Latin American or Asian in origin would seem more equally likely to be a newcomer, and I think people would not feel as awkward about asking a Black Canadian in Toronto his or her place(s) of origin because of this, though again, I normally don't ask people's ancestry. I think you can't really distinguish Black Canadians from the US (besides knowing if they are foreign born or native born, since there is data on birthplace) from others based on Canadian census data though.

 

[King of Kensington]

I don't think I've ever knowingly met a Black Torontonian who could trace their roots in this city to the 19th century AA population.

 

[King of Kensington]

You're right about the Black population being majority foreign born though. 56% of Black Torontonians were born outside Canada. Very few were born in the US though - 3,165 according to the NHS. Only 5.3% of Black Torontonians are third generation or more, of which presumably many are of long-time Black Canadian/African American roots.

 

[toraerach]

I knew a girl in high school whose family came to Canada through the Underground Railroad. She once told our American History class about the huge racist backlash that occurred when her Black grandfather married a White girl in ~1950. IIRC, there are many descendants of African-American slaves in Ontario who wouldn't identify as Black today; they may have one Black great-great-granparent who, quite possibly, was kept a family secret and forgotten about entirely over succeeding generations.

Oh okay, I didn't know NYC had mostly foreign born or second generation blacks. I still think that no US city has foreign-born outnumbering native born (including native born to immigrant parents). My experience is that even in New York city, people still don't assume a white or black person is foreign born, if they have no non-American accent, the way say, a South Asian or Latin American might be, who often will get asked about it even with no accent. I did live in Connecticut for a little while, and noticed that some people there had Jamaican accents and in that way, sounded more familiar to me as a Torontonian than say, the African-Americans in Chicago. I actually find it pretty hard to find Caribbean food like Jamaican patties in Chicago, compared to Connecticut or New York city.

I would assume that Black Hispanics/Latinos (Dominicans, Puerto Ricans, Cubans, &c.) would comprise a sizeable chunk of the first/second-generation Black population in NYC. Those communities don't really exist in Toronto (we do have a small but visible Afro-Brazilian community).

 

[King of Kensington]

Toronto has the third largest number of foreign born blacks in North America (224,100), behind New York (972,820 MSA, 677,708 in NYC) and Miami-Fort Lauderdale (419,520). Washington (218,100) is next.

About one-third of blacks in NYC, Miami and Boston are foreign born, and 15% in Washington.

Chicago's black population is almost entirely African American, only 53,955 (3%) are foreign born. Minneapolis-St. Paul has more black immigrants than Chicago does (mostly Somali). It's not surprising it's hard to find Caribbean food in Chicago.

 

[wild goose chase]

Chicago's black population is almost entirely African American, only 53,955 (3%) are foreign born. Minneapolis-St. Paul has more black immigrants than Chicago does (mostly Somali). It's not surprising it's hard to find Caribbean food in Chicago.

I had no idea that the Twin cities actually had more black immigrants than Chicago. That's surprising considering Chicago is the largest city in the region and the third biggest in the country. Usually bigger cities draw more immigrants. I wonder why there was not so much immigration to Chicago?

It makes sense that Chicago mainly had internal migration (the Great Migration) from the South, rather than direct immigration but yet how did other American cities like Washington DC and Atlanta that likewise mostly had Southern Black communities still get many more new immigrants?

 

[wild goose chase]

Minneapolis-St. Paul has more black immigrants than Chicago does (mostly Somali)

Also, I've always wondered why the Twin cities are known for taking in many refugees, when they are not particularly large on the list of US cities, while in Canada, it seems like refugees (whether Somali, Tamil etc.) still are drawn towards Toronto or at least one of the top big cities. Maybe it's just reporting on the news and what I read about but it seems like refugees in Canada, while settling somewhat in the smaller towns, still skew towards larger metro areas than their US counterparts. Is this the result of policy or private sponsorship?

 

[King of Kensington]

It makes sense that Chicago mainly had internal migration (the Great Migration) from the South, rather than direct immigration but yet how did other American cities like Washington DC and Atlanta that likewise mostly had Southern Black communities still get many more new immigrants?

The Washington area I believe has the largest African immigrant population in the US. Not sure about Atlanta, perhaps its reputation as a "Black Mecca" has attracted several Caribbean and African immigrants as well.

Also, I've always wondered why the Twin cities are known for taking in many refugees, when they are not particularly large on the list of US cities, while in Canada, it seems like refugees (whether Somali, Tamil etc.) still are drawn towards Toronto or at least one of the top big cities. Maybe it's just reporting on the news and what I read about but it seems like refugees in Canada, while settling somewhat in the smaller towns, still skew towards larger metro areas than their US counterparts. Is this the result of policy or private sponsorship?

Probably most due to the fact that Canada has a lot fewer big cities than the US does.

 

[wild goose chase]

The Washington area I believe has the largest African immigrant population in the US. Not sure about Atlanta, perhaps its reputation as a "Black Mecca" has attracted several Caribbean and African immigrants as well.

I don't see why the immigrant waves would skip over or at least have little influence on Chicago though, the 3rd largest US city, while cities smaller in population like Houston, Atlanta, the Twin cities etc. receive larger shares of black immigrants.

If Washington DC and Atlanta have a reputation for being rich in Black American culture which might have been appealing for African and Caribbean immigrants, why didn't Chicago, which also has a large African-American population, have the same attraction?

 

[King of Kensington]

Timing of immigration. Chicago was appealing during the Great Migration(s) but that pretty much ended by 1970 or so, before the modern Caribbean and African immigration waves to the US. Atlanta and Washington are still growing and are particularly known as bastions of the Black middle/professional class.

Atlanta actually recently surpassed Chicago for the second largest Black population.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/05/11/chicagos-black-population_n_572311.html


ETA: Found some more stats. In 1970, the Chicago metropolitan area had 1,345,000 blacks, in 2010 it was 1,645,000. In Washington the black population nearly doubled, from 750,000 to 1,438,000. Atlanta was especially dramatic from about 400,000 to 1,708,000, leapfrogging over Chicago.