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Gouged on Mass Transit Costs

Monarch Butterfly

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Why is building our Subway, light rail, anything with mass transit take too long and are too expensive?

There's this article, at this link, that asks the question "U.S. Taxpayers Are Gouged on Mass Transit Costs". It can apply to us here in Toronto as well.

I've only cut-and-paste some paragraphs. Go to the link for the full article.

U.S. Taxpayers Are Gouged on Mass Transit Costs

If the first segment of Manhattan’s Second Avenue subway opens on schedule in 2016, New Yorkers will be reminded that it was once “the line that time forgot” -- a project more than 75 years in the making, with no end in sight. It should be remembered for another failing as well: It will be one of the most expensive subways in the world.

Tunneling in any dense urban environment is an expensive proposition, but the $5 billion price tag for just the first two miles of the Second Avenue subway cannot be explained by engineering difficulties. The segment runs mainly beneath a single broad avenue, unimpeded by rivers, super-tall skyscraper foundations or other subway lines.

American taxpayers will shell out many times what their counterparts in developed cities in Europe and Asia would pay. In the case of the Second Avenue line and other new rail infrastructure in New York City, they may have to pay five times as much.

Amtrak is just as bad. Its $151 billion master plan for basic high-speed rail service in the Northeast corridor is more expensive than Japan’s planned magnetic levitating train line between Tokyo and Osaka, most of which is to be buried deep underground, with tunnels through the Japan Alps and beneath its densest cities.

...

The French rail operator SNCF told the California High- Speed Rail Authority that it could cut $30 billion off the project’s $68 billion estimated price tag. San Francisco can barely build underground light rail for the price that Tokyo pays for high-capacity subways. Los Angeles’s planned subway to the sea will be a bit cheaper, but is still very expensive considering the area’s lack of density.

The budgets for other types of urban public-works projects can be just as shocking. Who can forget Boston’s Big Dig, the $24 billion highway boondoggle? But mass-transit networks stand to lose most from out-of-control infrastructure costs.

A huge part of the problem is that agencies can’t keep their private contractors in check. Starved of funds and expertise for in-house planning, officials contract out the project management and early design concepts to private companies that have little incentive to keep costs down and quality up. And even when they know better, agencies are often forced by legislation, courts and politicians to make decisions that they know aren’t in the public interest.

...

In Madrid, on the other hand, cost was given only a 30 percent weight when picking designers and builders, according to Melis. Speed was weighted at 20 percent. Melis praised quick execution as necessary for an efficient, affordable project. (Compare this with multigenerational projects, such as California’s high-speed rail and New York’s Second Avenue subway.) The remaining 50 percent was determined by the technical merits of proposals and the staff’s subjective considerations.

...

The MTA must continue to award contracts to the lowest- price bidder, and without the ability to hold bad contractors accountable, Littlefield said, the agency turns to “writing longer and longer and longer contracts, expressly prohibiting every way it has been ripped off in the past.” The byzantine contracts that come out of this process drive entrants away, limiting competition and pushing up costs.

Littlefield holds out hope, however, that transit agencies are capable of building with reasonable costs and timelines -- at least when they have to. “Remember how fast and how cheap they rebuilt the 1 train after 9/11? That’s what they’re capable of. But it just doesn’t happen otherwise.”

...
 
Madrid tunnels are built as one tunnel for 2 track and platforms. This also applies to most other Metro/LRT/Subways being built at this time. Stations are a lot farther part than TTC station with some like GO Transit.

As for LRT lines, it various from systems to systems how they are built and scratch my head why this way as I watch them do the work, as it is mostly labour work. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=35MiQNtH6Ms

Way we do things are too costly to do underground systems. Even stations in Europe put TTC to shame and some of those are run down at this time.
 
Remember the piledriving in West Toronto Diamond? Maybe in Spain they don't have regulatory agencies that can impose decisions which (whether you agree it was necessary or not) have the effect of slowing down construction. As drum118 says the single bore tunnel is used but in North America fire codes are more conservative so twin tunnels provide better compliance. At the same time some of the other criticisms of consultants etc may be on the money, the problem is how to unravel the framework North American transit agencies seem to be trapped in. Scrutinising costs is difficult because inevitably "commercial confidentiality" finds its way in.

This was a presentation made by Professor Manuel Melis (Madrid Metro) to the Irish Parliament's Transport Committee:
http://debates.oireachtas.ie/TRJ/2003/06/19/00003.asp
 
It would have made the most sense if they would have expropriated property and built station boxes from the surface down instead of blasting entire station caverns out of solid granite way below the surface of the earth. If you do the former, you might pay inflated Manhattan property costs, but you have a naturally-ventilated site to work in and out of where you can use conventional equipment and standard construction workers who don't cost an arm and a leg in labour costs.
 
It would have made the most sense if they would have expropriated property and built station boxes from the surface down instead of blasting entire station caverns out of solid granite way below the surface of the earth.

I wondered about that decision too but I believe Ottawa is going to be doing essentially the same thing with their LRT project right? Deep level station excavation beneath existing structures in solid granite. I know they regularly blast for building excavation in Ottawa so I assume they will for the LRT too.

Those aspects alone cannot be telling the full story.
 
I wondered about that decision too but I believe Ottawa is going to be doing essentially the same thing with their LRT project right? Deep level station excavation beneath existing structures in solid granite. I know they regularly blast for building excavation in Ottawa so I assume they will for the LRT too.

Those aspects alone cannot be telling the full story.
To save costs, it's very plausible that Ottawa is moving to a cut-and-cover (GASP!) operation under Queen St. The bored tunnel will only be needed under the canal.
 
To save costs, it's very plausible that Ottawa is moving to a cut-and-cover (GASP!) operation under Queen St. The bored tunnel will only be needed under the canal.

Are they going to be saving over $1B per km in Ottawa by making that change?

I still don't think that blasting stations is why New York's 2nd ave project is so expensive: it's at $1500M/km. Some consider TTC projects to be expensive but they're still under 1/3rd of that rate and Ottawa's first version was about the same as TTC pricing (adjusted for station/train size). If cut & cover reduces costs, they'll be closer to 1/4 the price of NY's project for the underground component.
 
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