ssiguy2
Senior Member
Electrified trains aren't just about frequency but also about their zero emissions, faster travel times, much quieter trains both inside and out, and lower operational costs.
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GO Transit Electrification | Metrolinx
- Thread starter innsertnamehere
- Start date
drum118
Superstar
You forget there is an up front cost building power plant as well what fuel them. Water power plants are the cheapest cost to product power, but there are small number of palaces you can built them without causing water use down stream.
Saw the Hoover Dam a few years ago can can see the ring on the water where the water level used to be in the early 70's and it will never return to that level again due to demand for water on both side of it.
All other type of hydro plants play a large part on the environment and that has to be use to to increase operation cost else where.
Wind and solar power have a cost and impact where they are place and the type of land used for them.
You can have zero emission fast speed trains at a cost, but at what cost? I support EMU trains for everything.
DKsan
Active Member
Re: Richmond Hill electrification from the other thread:
At some point, some form of electrification will have to occur, no? I'm thinking of eventual electrification of all forms of transport, having one diesel line left seems unlike. So maybe instead of the full catenary, battery trains?
At some point, some form of electrification will have to occur, no? I'm thinking of eventual electrification of all forms of transport, having one diesel line left seems unlike. So maybe instead of the full catenary, battery trains?
crs1026
Senior Member
That's a beyond the horizon scenario.
Richmond Hill and Milton lines are not part of the current GO Electrification initiative. Nor are Hamilton, Bowmanville, and (it's unclear) Kitchener actually. Those lines represent higher cost, lower return applications and the status quo is acceptable for now.
Something will replace diesel eventually, but it's far from clear what that will be.
- Paul
ssiguy2
Senior Member
Some VERY interesting developments out of NY on the battery front.
The Long Island Railroad {LIRR} is just announced that it will be working with Alstom to study how they could deploy battery powered trains on the non-electrified sections. They currently use diesel with 3rd rail closer to the city but train technology is exactly the same if the electric source was deployed by catenary. It will be an 8 month study to see how far the trains can travel on battery alone, the effects of weather, speed and efficiency, and how smoothly they transfer over from 3rd rail to battery. If successful, battery trains could be plying the rails by next year.
The Long Island Railroad {LIRR} is just announced that it will be working with Alstom to study how they could deploy battery powered trains on the non-electrified sections. They currently use diesel with 3rd rail closer to the city but train technology is exactly the same if the electric source was deployed by catenary. It will be an 8 month study to see how far the trains can travel on battery alone, the effects of weather, speed and efficiency, and how smoothly they transfer over from 3rd rail to battery. If successful, battery trains could be plying the rails by next year.
drum118
Superstar
Using 2 cars is a starting point, but until you run 8-12 cars trains you will not get a true picture what will or not work. The branch line is only a short section compare to rest of the system.
Until the long section are tested with normal length trains, it is a guess game if it will work at this time even after the testing is done. What may have to happen is to have charging stations at each station to help in top off the battery with the same stop and go time as current trains with full charge at the end of the line.
Was going to post this on Monday, but decided not to since it only 2 single level cars compare to GO DD trains.
End of the day, how many systems in NA can run trains like GO on all fronts???
ssiguy2
Senior Member
^^^ I understand your points and they are valid. Running 2 car train on relatively short amount of track is far easier than the monsters that GO runs. That said, RER trains will not be 12 car DD but {probably} single level ones of around 100 to 120 meters.............much more like Toronto's current subway trains.
I agree that charging stations at each stop will be necessary but that is still much cheaper and faster to build than sticking up 250 km + of catenary wires. What's more they can now be recharged contact-free much like many currently operating electric buses do. This gets rid of the actual wires making the system completely free of potential disruptions caused by Mother Nature and much lower maintenance and replacement costs.
This is to say nothing of the fact that battery trains allow the system to be expanded almost immediately and at very little cost in new infrastructure.
I agree that charging stations at each stop will be necessary but that is still much cheaper and faster to build than sticking up 250 km + of catenary wires. What's more they can now be recharged contact-free much like many currently operating electric buses do. This gets rid of the actual wires making the system completely free of potential disruptions caused by Mother Nature and much lower maintenance and replacement costs.
This is to say nothing of the fact that battery trains allow the system to be expanded almost immediately and at very little cost in new infrastructure.
KevinT
Active Member
Not necessarily, the substations and grid taps on a 25 kV line are quite far apart. Having to put a tap and a transformer at every station quickly adds up. The transformers won't be any smaller (peak currents for zap and dash will be the same or higher than to just accelerate a catenary train) and there will be more of them.
ssiguy2
Senior Member
With current batteries, they will need to still put up a good chunk of catenary but probably less than half the amount than just pure catenary saving a lot of time and money to say nothing of battery inherent advantages over just 100% catenary.
drum118
Superstar
Ask Detroit about why streetcars have to sit long after coming off a section where battery was use than plan for. Ask IndyGO why battery power bus route require more charging station than what was built for the line.
Places who thought no charging stations were require between the ends are placing a few charging stations between the ends.
I love to see EMU, but not the OS after my trip to Europe. The same can be said for TTC streetcar system. With the building of the ROW on St Clair and the Queens Quay, those street look a lot better with most of the OS gone other than the ROW compare to intersections and other streets that streetcars run on. Having battery power on TTC streetcars would allow TTC to get rid of the OS at intersection to give a clean street look as well along the street,
TTC next fleet will be battery and maybe TTC should look at having batteries in the next back of cars as test cars and to be use on a route or 2 where the OS can be remove starting with St Clair.
The down side of removing TTC OS is still have Hydro ugly overhead wire system on those streets.
End of the day, will save TTC a lot of money not having an OS as well the manpower to maintain it.
One only have to go to the east coast of the US to see the ugly OS.
ARG1
Senior Member
Sorry but what does OS stand for?
Undead
Senior Member
^Overhead catenary system
ssiguy2
Senior Member
Battery trains are coming along much faster than thought even than just 5 years ago. The rate of battery technology advancements is truly staggering and this will grow exponentially.
We will find that in 10 short years batteries will be cheaper, much lighter, much smaller, recharge much faster, and have much longer life than what we can even dream of today. This has been given an even bigger shot in the arm now than Biden {thank God} is at the helm.
In 20 years we will find that diesel trains {including freight} will be nearly gone from the landscape and it will not be catenary that takes it's place but rather battery and hydrogen very much depending upon the type of service those trains provide. Battery will dominate the suburban/commuter systems and hydrogen the more long-distance and freight ones.
It also will not be too far into the future that we see the eventual death of catenary trains themselves. They will not be shut down en masse as there is no need but rather gradually phased out. When the wires need replacing or new trains are required they will go battery due to it's higher flexibility, lower maintenance costs, not being weather effected, and probably a gradual decline of manufacturers. The same will happen with the streetcars as well.
We will find that in 10 short years batteries will be cheaper, much lighter, much smaller, recharge much faster, and have much longer life than what we can even dream of today. This has been given an even bigger shot in the arm now than Biden {thank God} is at the helm.
In 20 years we will find that diesel trains {including freight} will be nearly gone from the landscape and it will not be catenary that takes it's place but rather battery and hydrogen very much depending upon the type of service those trains provide. Battery will dominate the suburban/commuter systems and hydrogen the more long-distance and freight ones.
It also will not be too far into the future that we see the eventual death of catenary trains themselves. They will not be shut down en masse as there is no need but rather gradually phased out. When the wires need replacing or new trains are required they will go battery due to it's higher flexibility, lower maintenance costs, not being weather effected, and probably a gradual decline of manufacturers. The same will happen with the streetcars as well.
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turini2
Active Member
There is no way that catenary will be replaced by battery powered trains - long term or short term. Why suffer the weight penalty of having to carry your energy around with you, when you can get it from overhead that exists? Batteries also need to be replaced as the capacity reduces - not helpful given trains have around 30/40 years of life expectancy these days!
Most of the plans for batteries for "mainline" use at the moment involve:
- fitting them to diesel trains to completely replace the diesel power unit completely
- fitting them to diesel trains for "hybrid" use - train start up/movement in station areas, extending range
- fitting them to electric or bi-mode (diesel and electric) trains to allow an electric train to use un-electrified tracks (solving the "branch line" or "freight siding" problem)
- Other ideas have included using batteries to power trains over complex junctions/interlockings - saving money by not having to build the most expensive bits of overhead cabling!
A more likely short term solution is one already being rolled out - bi-mode or tri-mode trains (electric, diesel, battery) and in future the addition of hydrogen to that mix. Ontario and Metrolinx dodged a bullet by not trying to 'electrify' GO with Hydrogen, something that hasn't been demonstrated at a widespread commercial scale.
This article is well worth a read.
EastYorkTTCFan
Senior Member
You seem to be very confident that the TTC will do that don't forget it took them almost 40 years to convert from trolley poles to pantographs. If they get an Ontario government that is willing to pay for full funding of it I could see that happening but I think that ship sailed a long time ago.