GO Transit Electrification | Metrolinx

[ssiguy2]

Service is important but remember guys we have a thread for GO service and this is an electrification thread.

Hydrogen technology is safe and is currently used throughout the world in many different applications including chemicals, transit buses, European trains, ferries, and even trams in China. There are over 2500 hydrogen cars in Japan alone. Hydrogen is highly flammable but there are many safeguards already in place which is why it is safe. In fact many state that hydrogen is safer than diesel of natural gas because those products have to be transported over very long distances to get to their respective fueling stations but this is not required with hydrogen as it can be produced at source using electrolysis. If hydrogen wasn't safe to use than none of these application would be currently in use.

The reality is that hydrogen is already used in many applications all over the world and just because you don't see it doesn't mean it's not there. Unfortunately for the industry, hydrogen {until recently} has a negative reputation because you still have morons who think everything with hydrogen is going to blow up because it happened on the Hindenburg 85 years ago. This is much like monorails which stupid people think can't work because they heard it on a Simpson's song but try telling that to the 400,000 who use their new system in Sao Paulo or the 900,000 who use monorail everyday in Chongqing.

 

[crs1026]

The reality is that hydrogen is already used in many applications all over the world and just because you don't see it doesn't mean it's not there.

True enough.

I was in Ohio recently near a busy railroad line, and a local pointed out to me that all the CTC bungalows had been fitted out with hydrogen-powered backup power cells. I was impressed, for several reasons, but the proof was there.

We still need to see a higher-powered rail traction application that has reached maturity. And we need codes and standards for Hydrogen in Ontario.

- Paul

 

[ssiguy2]

More news on the hydrogen & battery front:

TerraWatt Industries of Santa Clara Cal have come out with a revolutionary solid state battery that greatly increases it's power density. The maximum right now is 260 watts/hr/kg and the new batter takes that to 432.....a huge jump. As a base example on a smaller scale, that would take the 2011 Nissan Leaf from a range of 70 miles to 220 miles on the exact same size battery. This allows vehicles {like trains} travel 3X as long without recharging or conversely dropping the weight of the batteries needed currently by 2/3 which is a very big deal as the weight of the batteries themselves are often viewed as one of battery trains biggest drawbacks. The batteries also last longer. It will be available by late 2021.

ProtonTechnologies of Calgary has come out with a game changer for hydrogen. It has developed a way to take hydrogen out of current & dormant oil wells and the oil sands with zero emissions. What's more is that most of the infrastructure to do so is already part of the wells themselves and the cost would drop from currently $2/hr kilo of hydrogen down to just $0.10 to $0.50. and implementation of large scale production could begin within 18 months.

The rate of changes and new technologies in both batteries and hydrogen {and hence how they can be used on passenger rail} is truly numbing.

 

[dowlingm]

@ssiguy2 since you were policing what GO related content was suitable for this thread, I for one would like a slow down in the spamming of this thread with hydrogen industry press releases.

 

[ssiguy2]

It's important that any city about to spend $2 billion to electrify rail corridors makes sure that they are making the right choice and not doing it without making informed decisions. An informed decision requires having knowledge and due diligence about all potential and viable alternatives that may be a superior choice.I have NEVER stated that I think catenary is a worse choice over hydrogen or battery/catenary. What I have always said is that one must know ALL the facts before making a decision so that they can be sure that they have made the correct one so Torontonians are provided with the best technology and service. Taxpayers have the right to demand that their tax dollars are being spent wisely based on clear objectivity.

I am NOT advocating hydrogen or battery but simply offering information in very fast changing technologies. The technology of catenary is very well known but far less so hydrogen or battery due to being newer technologies. Again, this allows for more informed discourse and hence final determinations.. I am not, nor have I ever, been "policing" this thread and nor do I believe offering information qualifies as "trolling" and I am rather offended at both accusations.

 

[Neutrino]

Oh god, this hydrogen stuff has become a mantra like through running RER was for Steve and Scarborough subway for OneCity. FML

 

[mdrejhon]

The MetrolinxEngage Town Hall question voting is now up!

Three of the questions pertains to GO electrification! Go and upvote those questions.

That will make sure the topic is discussed during the upcoming townhall.

 

[robmausser]

The MetrolinxEngage Town Hall question voting is now up!

Three of the questions pertains to GO electrification! Go and upvote those questions.

That will make sure the topic is discussed.

lol so many questions about Miltion Line all day service. Poor milton line users. Poor Metrolinx, nothing they can really do that would be cost effective and reasonable. F%&* CP rail.

 

[torontocolin]

It's important that any city about to spend $2 billion to electrify rail corridors makes sure that they are making the right choice and not doing it without making informed decisions. An informed decision requires having knowledge and due diligence about all potential and viable alternatives that may be a superior choice.I have NEVER stated that I think catenary is a worse choice over hydrogen or battery/catenary. What I have always said is that one must know ALL the facts before making a decision so that they can be sure that they have made the correct one so Torontonians are provided with the best technology and service. Taxpayers have the right to demand that their tax dollars are being spent wisely based on clear objectivity.

Toronto isn't actually spending 2 billion on electrification, but even that aside, I don't think that press releases about tiny hydrogen planes in California or conceptual hydrogen trains in Europe which will only be actually read by 5 forum users, none of whom likely have any influence over this project, will really move the needle on educating the project team or the electorate. There are interesting developments in hydrogen power for transit, but the volume of material you post is just burying the signal in noise.

 

[pman]

Toronto isn't actually spending 2 billion on electrification, but even that aside, I don't think that press releases about tiny hydrogen planes in California or conceptual hydrogen trains in Europe which will only be actually read by 5 forum users, none of whom likely have any influence over this project, will really move the needle on educating the project team or the electorate. There are interesting developments in hydrogen power for transit, but the volume of material you post is just burying the signal in noise.

Look pal, this is Toronto. The remote possibility that there’s a signal in the noise is a huge win.

 

[mdrejhon]

The MetrolinxEngage Town Hall question voting is now up!
Three of the questions pertains to GO electrification! Go and upvote those questions.

Oh wow, the electrification questions got almost two dozen new upvotes.

Three of the top 10 are electrification related, and three of the top 10 are Milton related. At this rate of upvotes, looks like the Townhall has no choice but to address these topics.

Hopefully continued reaffirmations of electrification, though I expect continued "someday, someday" platitudes for Milton (sadly).

 

[ssiguy2]

You are advocating that Hydrogen is a legitimate option for a massive RFP currently in progress, which might as well be selling snake oil. As I have said so many times, the trains needed for this type of service do not exist and likely will not exist any time soon. And that might not even be the biggest barrier.

I am NOT "advocating" anything but simply providing technology updates due to being a newer technology.

I don't understand some of you guys who think that Metrolinx is not SERIOUSLY considering an alternative to catenary. If catenary is the only option then why haven't they started building any of the infrastructure? The wires certainly would come later but the poles themselves are easier to put up than a streetlight post. This is magnified several times by them building all these new/improved stations, overpasses, bridges, track twinings etc and yet not building any catenary poles when they are doing it. They wouldn't build the Eglington underground stations without the elevators and then waiting a few months before it opens and go into a mad rush to get them built. As we all know it is MUCH more expensive and disruptive to add infrastructure later on rather than building it as part of the original overall individual projects. The only poles they have built so far is the UP airport spur and that was probably more to do with political optics as the gov't said it would be electrified by 2018 to quell opposition of having a diesel train going thru neighbourhoods like Weston.

So if catenary is a given, as some of you think, then why hasn't it been incorporated into any of the already opened and underway projects? Also if Metrolinx isn't seriously considering anything then why hasn't it come out and said so especially when they narrowed down the top 4 bidders?

 

[crs1026]

So if catenary is a given, as some of you think, then why hasn't it been incorporated into any of the already opened and underway projects? Also if Metrolinx isn't seriously considering anything then why hasn't it come out and said so especially when they narrowed down the top 4 bidders?

Actually, catenary clearances have been incorporated into every bit of construction in the last decade, at least. As has electrical isolation and grounding for signalling and other hardware. It’s the stuff that was built decades ago that is problemmatic.

The reason electrification hasn’t happened is simple: Money. No part of the proposed network is very scalable. To even begin the project on a single line, Ml needs to build a maintenance base, wire the territory between said base and Union Station, and wire part or all of the USRC. (That’s where the wiring is most complicated and there are the greatest number of legacy structures and systems that aren’t electric-proofed yet). If the base is Willowbrook, there will have to be several bridges completely rebuilt which means also regrading the roads they carry - the bridge roadways will be higher.... just to connect Union to the shop. And, the central electrical supply feeders and substation(s) would have to be built, and the power control system and central control centre would have to be built. So even electrifying the UPE as a pilot might demand 30-50% of the envelope to electrify the whole system. That won’t get past the Finance folks.

ML is not completely out to lunch. Hiding electrification in the master DBFOM procurement is the best way to finance electrification without the huge risk of public sticker shock when wires are first strung. The cost becomes an annualised amount instead of an up front hit on the Province’s books.

That same sticker shock is what got ML into Hydrogen in the first place....it was a “Hail Mary” ploy that gave the Liberals a reason to put their heads in the sand on the whole thing. Let’s wait, something better may come along. That might actually be prudent..... if we can wait the 15 years for the new thing. We can’t, we needed RER by last year. (It is possible, of course, that if weelectrify one line every couple of years, hydrogen will be ready for prime timebefore the last line gets wires).

ML will place its master RFP, the vendor will mobilize, and the wires will finally start to arrive. It’s frustratingly slow, but I think I see the light at the end of the tunnel...... maybe.

- Paul

 

[smallspy]

So if catenary is a given, as some of you think, then why hasn't it been incorporated into any of the already opened and underway projects?

Have you not been watching all of the various projects that Metrolinx has been working on for the past several years? Every single one of them has shown catenary above the tracks in all of the renderings, and has taken account the masts and portals to support it on the structural drawings.

Dan

 

[dowlingm]

Have you not been watching all of the various projects that Metrolinx has been working on for the past several years? Every single one of them has shown catenary above the tracks in all of the renderings, and has taken account the masts and portals to support it on the structural drawings.

Dan

Wasn't there a small oops made during the Union Shed refurb though?