GO Transit Electrification | Metrolinx

[Streety McCarface]

I would be surprised if the Ontario Line removed much ridership from either King or Queen, especially as further development adds even more density along those routes. Ditto College and Dundas. I'm not sure that there is much "parallel" routing.

What worries me more is actually the reverse - the impact of just constructing along the proposed route could be cancellation or at best rerouting of some routes. Can King Street handle both 501 and 504 volumes?

- Paul

And one of the best examples of this is College/Carlton. Sure, the line has been seeing a steady decrease in ridership over the majority of Line 2's existence, but that's mainly because public transit ridership all over the city went to shit in the last quarter of the century. Although ridership on the is a fraction of what it was back in its heyday, the fact still remains that the line's ridership is increasing despite the speed of line 2, the fact that it is not technically overcrowded (yet), and most impressively, sees 40K PPD. That's not nothing, it's more than line 3, and that's despite having a subway less than 1 km north of it, other 2 subways within a kilometer of 1/3 of the route, and the 505 existing 500 meters to the south, it's that high.

Another example is the 510, and probably is a better example given the even closer proximity to the University Subway (600 meters). The Spadina route sees even more passengers (45K according to the last count, but is likely closer to 50-60K given the insane development along the corridor), and this is despite having a subway station within a 4 minute walk of any major intersection along the corridor. People want that last mile service, and the subway and streetcar systems need to work hand and hand in order to ensure that everyone has accessibility throughout the city.

 

[CapitalSeven]

Another example is the 510, and probably is a better example given the even closer proximity to the University Subway (600 meters). The Spadina route sees even more passengers (45K according to the last count, but is likely closer to 50-60K given the insane development along the corridor), and this is despite having a subway station within a 4 minute walk of any major intersection along the corridor.

Yes, but more like 10 minutes from Spadina to University.

 

[steveintoronto]

This time, if we are going to build the Ontario Line relatively cheap, but without much spare capacity, then retaining the parallel streetcar routes may be a good way to retain a few extra thousand per hour in extra capacity.

People want that last mile service, and the subway and streetcar systems need to work hand and hand in order to ensure that everyone has accessibility throughout the city.

Streetcars remaining not only add redundancy, they also allow greater spacing of the heavy rail stations for everybody's benefit. And if heavy rail is not working for some reason, the streetcars are there for redundancy.

if we are going to build the Ontario Line relatively cheap

It won't be cheap, in any manifestation, neither should it be. But it will be *affordable* in terms of positive yield. And building it too small will totally violate that equation. To get the investment's worth, it has to not just 'relieve' Line 1 and to some extent, Line 2, it must *subvert* a lot of the unreasonable demand put on both. To keep thinking that the subways can do more than they were designed for in the first place is like jacking more seats in the back of the VW van and calling it a bus. Trying to expand the subways is throwing money away, and ruining the original purpose of them. Reduce loading 20%, and they'll work fine with just some tweaks. It's like expecting Hwy #2 to handle what Hwys #401 et al are now handling, and even they're out of spare capacity.

Put the investment into building this heavy, as a form of RER that can be shared with HFR, build the stations with centre rail bypass for express and HFR, and space them enough to keep even the locals moving at a good rate.

The whole approach of building a 'light weight, narrow, small tunnel' system is madness repeated over and over again. The answers exist in other cities, and it isn't 'metro' or 'light rail'. It's state of the art heavy rail. The sooner the minions in the mould of moronic thinking in QP 'get this' the sooner they'll actually have bidders/investors clamouring to be part of it, if not build it outright as private with government sanction. This nation's rail system was built that way, some nations have returned to that as a model. But it takes progressive governments to know how to marshal that. We're shid out of luck there...

If there was some dialog with the Feds (who claim, probably rightly so, that they haven't been told a clue on this) it would help things greatly. But alas...

 

[torontocolin]

Carlton, Dundas, and Queen would probably be even more heavily used if they hadn't been capacity-constrained for roughly the last decade as well. We've seen this on King, Spadina, and even St Clair; you increase capacity and latent demand fills that capacity.

 

[ssiguy2]

Saw an interesting report on CTV London that is pertinent.

Bruce County and the Saugeen Native Reserve are teaming up to create a hydrogen production centre. They will take the excess power from the Bruce nuclear plant in the evenings/overnight and convert it to hydrogen power and will be kept at a new facility on the reserve and stored and distributed from there...…………...an excellent idea.

They want to become the "hydrogen capitol of NA" which admittedly is probably a tad optimistic but good for them for making better use of the power from Bruce and creating a new economic engine in a very fast growing commodity and technology. Canada with Hydrogenics in Miss and Ballard in Vancouver TRULY is a world leader in hydrogen technology as the Alstom hydrogen trains that run with Hydrogenics technology proves.

Bruce & Saugeen have signed the agreement and want the facility up and running in a year which is pertinent to RER be able to supply some/most of the hydrogen fuel to begin with greatly reducing any initial potential costs to Metrolinx. They would be able to have the entire hydrogen production/infrastructure in place well before any potential hydrail vehicles arrive.

 

[dowlingm]

The production of hydrogen in the Bruce might work but how do you get it south to where it will be used?

 

[ssiguy2]

Basically there are 2 ways to move hydrogen depending if it's compressed gas or liquified. If compressed it can be moved via pipelines {which would a huge infrastructure investment} or by truck. Liquid can be moved via truck with liquid containers. Both systems can also use rail.

The fueling stations themselves are basically identical to your standard gas station. The trucks come by, unload their product into the gas/hydrogen tanks and then the cars/trains simply take the fuel they need using a standard gas pump. This is why the amount of time it takes to fill a vehicle with gas or hydrogen is basically the same. The entire hydrogen Alstom trains can be refueled in less than 7 minutes coming from a standard storage facility just like diesel.

Once a hydrogen production facility is working, getting it to the trains and building the storage facility is basically no different than what would have to be done for any diesel train. If you know how to fill your car at the gas station, you could fill a train at a hydrogen station. The system is so similar that Metrolinx could simply convert it's diesel stations to hydrogen ones with ease.

 

[muller877]

Once a hydrogen production facility is working, getting it to the trains and building the storage facility is basically no different than what would have to be done for any diesel train. If you know how to fill your car at the gas station, you could fill a train at a hydrogen station. The system is so similar that Metrolinx could simply convert it's diesel stations to hydrogen ones with ease.

https://driving.ca/auto-news/news/new-fuel-cell-design-could-make-hydrogen-powered-cars-cheaper

Also very good news. University of Waterloo is advancing the design of the fuel cell.

 

[crs1026]

^Some of the press coverage from back in March indicated that Bruce Power was buying all the product, at least for the start.

Given that the Saugeen reserve is a little north of the nuclear plants, and the hydrogen production facility will be on the reserve, there can only be as much production as there is electrical transmission capability between the two locations. That makes me think that the startup will be limited capacity, although there is certainly room to grow.

The issue for ML is, nobody is going to send a delivery truck from Saugeen Shores to Willowbrook on demand to fuel a train or two. There would have to be a storage facility at Willowbrook, or a supplier somewhere in the GTA that can deliver as needed.

So, I don't see a cause-and-effect connection between this announcement and ML having a hydrogen source at the ready, but it's certainly evidence that hydrogen may become more available in Ontario.

- Paul

 

[ssiguy2]

Of course if it can be done at Bruce it could also be done at Pickering or Niagara. It's an excellent way making better use of the current Hydro infrastructure that already exists.

 

[KevinT]

Why are these tall barriers required for GO electrification, but not required for bridges that cross over TTC subway tracks?

It keeps people from leaning out and touching the wires. Subway uses third rail just above ground level, so it's not an issue there. The Weber St overpass in Waterloo got this treatment as part of the ION LRT system build.

 

[Tuscani01]

^Some of the press coverage from back in March indicated that Bruce Power was buying all the product, at least for the start.

Given that the Saugeen reserve is a little north of the nuclear plants, and the hydrogen production facility will be on the reserve, there can only be as much production as there is electrical transmission capability between the two locations. That makes me think that the startup will be limited capacity, although there is certainly room to grow.

The issue for ML is, nobody is going to send a delivery truck from Saugeen Shores to Willowbrook on demand to fuel a train or two. There would have to be a storage facility at Willowbrook, or a supplier somewhere in the GTA that can deliver as needed.

So, I don't see a cause-and-effect connection between this announcement and ML having a hydrogen source at the ready, but it's certainly evidence that hydrogen may become more available in Ontario.

- Paul

Also, the idea that ML would need someone to produce the hydrogen is an assumption in itself. Metrolinx can just product its own. Canadian Tire is producing hydrogen to power equipment at the Brampton Distribution centre, and is building the largest hydrogen fuel plant in North America in Bolton to support that distribution centre.

It would make sense for Metrolinx to just produce its own too.

 

[dowlingm]

Also, the idea that ML would need someone to produce the hydrogen is an assumption in itself. Metrolinx can just product its own.

From what feedstock?

 

[crs1026]

It would make sense for Metrolinx to just produce its own too.

Quite possible - but in a climate where ML is contracting out just about everything else, I can't imagine they would keep this in house.

However - the EA for electrification calls for a substation and electrical feed at the Manby TS in Etobicoke, with a feeder running down the Canpa Sub to Willowbrook. It would sure make sense for ML to draw their electrical load for Hydrogen here, and have a production plant in that area. Maybe they could find a partner who would operate the plant and maybe take on other customers also.

- Paul

PS - similar to coal, where some electricity producers traditionally preferred to situate generating facilities at the mine mouth, I wonder whether tomorrow's hydrogen producers will choose to situate next to generating plants, versus downstream. Wonder what the comparative economics of electrical transmission versus physical shipping of hydrogen will turn out to be.

 

[ssiguy2]

In the future when demand increases exponentially you will see pipelines being proposed. The good news is that they would probably be cheaper to build than most pipeline as I think Hydro would be open to the idea of using their Hydro ROW corridors for the pipelines. They don't want it now for things like natural gas but that's logical as natural gas is a competitive commodity as opposed to hydrogen which Hydro will be making a lot of money off of in off-peak times when they have the capacity but no customers.