GO Transit Electrification | Metrolinx

[ssiguy2]

In regards to France and Germany still expanding their catenary network you are quite correct and yes that is noteworthy when Hydrail is being increasingly seen as a viable alternative. The analogy with Toronto however is limited. These are countries that already have huge catenary systems already so they already have the infrastructure, human resources, and fleet integration. Many of these lines are also extensions of current lines or feeder routes into current lines ending at an already electrified central station. Toronto has none of these things. These countries are expanding a already huge current system while Toronto is starting from scratch.

 

[Rainforest]

You are absolutely right, Toronto does need catenary right now but the problem is that is not going to happen. The deadline for catenary electrification is 2025 and it will not be met. Lets be serious, after years of debate, meetings, and studies Metrolinx hasn't even figured out what level of platforms they will little alone if RER will be single or double decker trains and God know fare integration is a write-off. Remember when the UPX was suppose to be electrified by 2017? Now of course that is the generic answer of 2025. Get some Hydrail trains ASAP and if they are not a good fit then fine as the very worse thing that can happen is that they provide service with a Toronto first...……..running near silent and zero emissions trains.

What's the reason to think that Metrolinx will handle Hydrail much more efficiently than it handles catenary electrification. They are perfectly capable of dragging their feet on either project, or even both of them concurrently.

If there exists a hidden reason for Metrolinx to specifically dislike catenary, then we can try to hope that their performance will improve dramatically once they are allowed to pursue Hydrail instead.

But if the real reason, not so hidden, is the lack of funding and the lack of political clout to secure funding, then they won't excel with Hydrail, either.

 

[steveintoronto]

In regards to France and Germany still expanding their catenary network you are quite correct and yes that is noteworthy when Hydrail is being increasingly seen as a viable alternative.

You tout a false narrative and then build castles on it. It *isn't a viable alternative to catenary supplied larger EMUs*! It's an alternative to diesel on branch lines where the cost of building catenary isn't justified due to the lower passenger demand.

If you disagree with that, then produce evidence otherwise. I get tired of continually providing detail and reference only for you to completely ignore it time and again. And even the replacement of diesel (a clean air imperative the EU mandates, something we talk about and do very little to enact) is *experimental* still.

From Ballard's own blog:

Blog
Hydrail: The World is Ready and New Progress Proves It
Zero Emission Rail Transport
Jun. 8, 2018
Article by Nicolas Pocard
Hydrail: within the rail transportation sector it’s the word on everyone’s lips.
Why? Because using hydrogen fuel cells to power the traction motors in trains has moved from concept to reality. The momentum behind hydrail is building:

• international conferences and symposia have sprung up
• major train manufacturers have systems available or in development
• major railway operators and regions have committed to beginning the transition.

The world wants to replace diesel trains, and hydrogen train technology is ready to take its place.


CO2 emissions from diesel transit trains are a major contributor to global warming and to regional air pollution, especially in urban areas. Authorities are under growing pressure to reduce carbon emissions, and diesel trains are an obvious target: trains are large, visible polluters, seen by every urban commuter and nearby resident.
As a result, many transit and rail systems operators are facing tough new emissions targets. Zero-emission trains are the fastest route to meeting those goals. And hydrogen fuel cell train technology is the most cost-effective solution. As more transit authorities embrace hydrail, the transition from diesel may take place far more quickly than anyone expects.
Download our free presentation to learn why hydrogen fuel cells are the most advanced zero-emission solution for rail applications >>
(Related post: High-Tech Hydrogen Trains are Revolutionizing Mass Transit)

Hydrogen Fuel Cell Trains: Electric Trains With No Overhead Lines
Until recently, the only effective zero-emission solution was to power electric trains from a grid of overhead power lines called catenary wires. Installation and maintenance of such a grid—of poles, wires and electrical infrastructure, comes with a massive cost. Electrification of existing tracks also includes major civil engineering work on bridges and overpasses.
Hydrogen trains, on the other hand, require no electrification infrastructure. They run on existing unmodified tracks. The trains are 100% electric. Each train generates its own electricity from its own hydrogen fuel cell, just as a diesel train carries its own diesel fuel.

The hydrogen fuel cells are refueled with hydrogen. Refueling takes about the same time as refueling a traditional diesel engine.
A Direct Diesel Replacement for Commuter Trains and Shunt Systems
Nearly any train route that is served by diesel trains can be served by a hydrail train. From regional and commuter train routes to shunt and yard systems, the replacement is one-to-one. No new infrastructure is required, beyond the hydrogen refuelling stations. [...]

https://blog.ballard.com/hydrail

And this is where I and a number of critically enabled others call BS! "No new infrastructure is required, beyond the hydrogen refuelling stations."

Some people actually believe that, and then rant about how it's such an easy answer...just like that, "hydrogen refuelling stations" spring up like magic. Just like mushrooms. Reality can be such a drag...

Canada 'Among Worst-Equipped Countries For Electric Cars ...
HuffPost Canada-Jan. 10, 2019
Canada is well behind a majority of its developed-world peers when it comes to adopting electric car technology, a new analysis has found.

And that's with some of the cheapest electricity in the world and a widely developed electrical grid. Oh yeah, we're just going to build a Hydrogen production and distribution network overnight...

Getting back to mushrooms, Canada can't even produce enough legal pot to fill the need it's assumed control of.

Build catenary, and do it now.

 

[ssiguy2]

If you don`t want to try Hydrail or even battery trains then fine, don`t do it. That said please don`t be under any illusions that RER will be complete by 2025 or you are going to be sadly disappointed. Metrolinx still can`t even figure out height platforms in 5 years so I don`t know why you would think they could all of a sudden electrify 200km of rail line in 6 years. Hydrail and/or battery offer a way to get zero emissions, quiet, and faster trains plying the rails years before catenary will but if you don`t want to try them then fine but taking such an attitude also means you have a very long wait on your hands.

 

[steveintoronto]

That said please don`t be under any illusions that RER will be complete by 2025 or you are going to be sadly disappointed.

lol...You're building imaginary castles in the sky again. You obviously have no idea of what a cynic I am, so stop 'jumping to contusions'.

so I don`t know why you would think they could all of a sudden electrify 200km of rail line in 6 years.

And now you're living in your imaginary castles in the sky.

Sorry Bud, I can't be bothered reading any more...

 

[cplchanb]

If you don`t want to try Hydrail or even battery trains then fine, don`t do it. That said please don`t be under any illusions that RER will be complete by 2025 or you are going to be sadly disappointed. Metrolinx still can`t even figure out height platforms in 5 years so I don`t know why you would think they could all of a sudden electrify 200km of rail line in 6 years. Hydrail and/or battery offer a way to get zero emissions, quiet, and faster trains plying the rails years before catenary will but if you don`t want to try them then fine but taking such an attitude also means you have a very long wait on your hands.

Even if they start now itll take them 2 years to design the hydrogen fueling infrastructure and another 5 to 10 fully implementing it. Not to mention the $$$$$ involved over relatively unknown tech.

Good luck getting it before catenary

 

[44 North]

If we combined through the education sector as a university program, wonder what the capital cost or merit would be for a very small-scale line. Say from Summerhill to Markham, or just Summerhill to Kennedy. Not sure about hydrogen. Maybe wind-up power/kinetic storage, or compressed air. Clean, zero emissions. It would be the only example of such in the world. Would be a money loser but a chance to try something new and an investment in education.

 

[ssiguy2]

I enjoy reading about rail development and technology and I found a new job posting by Metrolinx under the Aboriginal Job Board {I'm not Aboriginal but just happened to come up on the Google search} posted Jan 24/19. Of course it stated all the standard academic and job experience qualifications needed but one requirement stood out. It required the applicant have experience system development and procurement of rail systems and particularly electrification and HYDROGEN technology and systems. Obviously this is for RER and clearly Metrolinx is seriously considering hydrogen or it would not make it a requirement for a job specifically for RER.

On another note the German hydrail trains are doing a 'tour' of Germany over the next 6 weeks to showcase the trains and technology to cities in the country that are currently looking to electrify their regional systems.

 

[Allandale25]

^ They've said for months now or longer hydrogen was part of the mix so I'm not surprised by this. Basically they'll leave it up to the bidders to decide the mix, if any, of hydrogen.

The real question is if the hydrogen test prototype engine is still going ahead. I think it was going to cost over $1 million? Haven't heard much on it lately.

 

[ssiguy2]

I do appreciate that but this late in the game the fact that a new position requires a in-depth understanding of both development and procurement of hydrogen rail systems is still quite telling. It seems increasingly likely that Metrolinx will at least trial run some hydrogen trains which they definitely should regardless.

 

[Allandale25]

^ But is it that late? The RFQ only recently closed and the RFP issuance and then a final decision made public, assuming the gov funds it, will stretch over two years. So maybe the person will assist with reviewing the bids, which they haven't even received formally yet.

 

[crs1026]

^I find it unlikely that ML will actually get applicants with previous experience in procuring, commissioning, and operating hydrail equipment.

Applicants with electrical traction experience is more plausible, and/or experience in specc'ing, procuring, and rolling out prototypes and setting up new operations with new technologies. They don't really need specialists in hydrail, in some ways it's as much of a black box as diesel, but one would need a good mind able to soak up and keep abreast of developments as codes, prototypes, etc are advanced elsewhere.

- Paul

 

[ssiguy2]

France has just announced yet another diesel to hydrogen line run by SNCF. The 19 km route on the Auxerre/Laroche will be exclusively hydrogen rail by 2022. This is totally different from the routes in the Bordeaux area announced late last year. Korea has announced a massive investment to create their own hydrogen rail cars to compete with Alstom. The Netherlands just announced a Euro 2.7 billion investment in transforming the nation into a hydrogen economy including rail transportation and associated infrastructure.

If Toronto was afraid of trying a 'new technology', it is starting to look more like that is far less of a threat as hydrogen rail seems to be the electric rail system of the future. It takes a critical mass to create a competitive market and off-the shelf infrastructure and it seems like hydrogen is developing that at a dizzying pace.

 

[Allandale25]

Phil went into some specific details yesterday on electrification. I'll post the time marked video when it's up.

 

[Leo_Chan]

Phil went into some specific details yesterday on electrification. I'll post the time marked video when it's up.

I thought he already went over this a few months ago, and that he just repeated the same thing at the Town Hall. It is up to the bidders to choose what type of electrification technology to use. Also that the cabinet (politicians) were happy about the cost savings electrification would result in.