News   Mar 28, 2024
 86     0 
News   Mar 27, 2024
 1.4K     1 
News   Mar 27, 2024
 1.1K     2 

GO Transit Electrification (Metrolinx, Proposed)

Part of the `madness` argument was that there was no way to bring hydrogen to the locomotives for GO, well no kidding. There is also no way to bring 3rd, 4th, or linear technology to the locomotives so why bother bringing it up? Using the excuse that hydrogen locomotives are not feasible is both hyperbole and disingenous because they have never been considered for RER anyway. The whole point of RER is to make the service in the core area faster and more frequent and the monster locomotives are hence not optional regardless of whether they run on electricity, coal, steam, or horse & buggy.

RER is to be electrified which using the current rail infrastructure leaves 3 options...…..catenary, hydrogen, or battery. A decision should be based on practicality, price, efficiency, reliability, construction times, environmental impacts, service levels and quality, comfort,and speed and not on false analogies.
 
Part of the `madness` argument was that there was no way to bring hydrogen to the locomotives for GO, well no kidding. There is also no way to bring 3rd, 4th, or linear technology to the locomotives so why bother bringing it up? Using the excuse that hydrogen locomotives are not feasible is both hyperbole and disingenous because they have never been considered for RER anyway. The whole point of RER is to make the service in the core area faster and more frequent and the monster locomotives are hence not optional regardless of whether they run on electricity, coal, steam, or horse & buggy.

RER is to be electrified which using the current rail infrastructure leaves 3 options...…..catenary, hydrogen, or battery. A decision should be based on practicality, price, efficiency, reliability, construction times, environmental impacts, service levels and quality, comfort,and speed and not on false analogies.
Since you apparently missed or ignored the deeper criticisms raised in the article:

The Star said:
“It is simply madness that the Ontario government is seriously considering this,” wrote Shearer, who is also chief executive of Hitachi Power Systems Canada and a board member of the Energy Council of Canada.

“One accident in the implementation of this technology presents grave risk to government, public confidence and Metrolinx,” he said, arguing the storage and distribution of hydrogen could be dangerous.

He predicted it would take “years beyond” the planned RER completion date of 2025 for hydrail to accumulate a safety record Metrolinx could trust, and argued the government’s “rush” to use the technology was “reckless” and would “put lives at risk.”
[...]
In an email to the Star last week, Shearer said he was satisfied with how Metrolinx handled his concerns because the agency acted on his recommendation to have the Canadian Nuclear Laboratories, which has experience with hydrogen technologies, take part in the study. He added that his concerns about the early adoption of hydrogen technology “remain the same.”
[..]
Metrolinx CEO Phil Verster also expressed reservations about hydrail, not about safety but about the wisdom of potentially pinning the success of RER on an unproven technology.

Weeks before Verster officially took office on Oct. 1, 2017, he received an update on the hydrail program from Metrolinx staff.

Afterward, he sent an email to two Metrolinx executives. “I sense that there may be a fundamental stumbling block — the application is untested in a train application, without a reference system and without the development kinks ironed out?” he wrote on Sept. 11, 2017.

“This is in itself a showstopper because we cannot risk the annual benefit from RER on a belief the train builder will resolve such issues on time.”

He noted that “train builders often struggle to deliver standard, existing technology trains.”

I therefore cannot see how we can include this in the RER scope as it is simply not ready as an application and it is unproven,” he wrote.
May I ask you what professional or academic credentials qualify you to discredit the CEOs of Hitachi Power Systems Canada and Metrolinx as "incompetent, biased, and disingenuous"? Can we make an argument here without showing the temper of a Kindergarten pupil?
 
Last edited:
I think it's going to take a massive buy-in from a power provider like Hydro-One or a competitor, but Hydro-One is exquisitely positioned *physically* to do it, to bid on providing the electrical grid as part of a consortium to build (whatever RER is called this week). It would remove the excuse game from Metrolinx (who are already quietly convinced it has to be catenary) and the Metrolinx Masters (read Ford), but Ford has royally screwed Hydro-One already, and made yet another fine mess. Is there anything Ford can't screw up?

There's another aspect to electrifying Ontario RoWs, and this pertains conveniently to VIA's HFR: Rail RoWs often make perfect shared utility corridors, even if the railbed snakes, as under the Ont Electricity Act, where the rail RoW veers around hills, the xmssn towers can continue over. And Ontario is in need of some new corridors, especially to Quebec.
 
Make of this what you will. I'm posting this before someone else does to get in front of the story. I'll have a critique of it later:

Monday's Times of London features this:
Full steam ahead for hydrogen trains
Graeme Paton, Transport Correspondent
January 7 2019, 12:01am, The Times
methode%2Ftimes%2Fprod%2Fweb%2Fbin%2F346a54e8-11f0-11e9-94cd-1357d20693b3.jpg

The new “Breeze” trains will be on the tracks by early 2021 ALSTOM

Hydrogen trains will be introduced in as little as two years under ambitious plans to phase out dirty diesel engines.
The Times has learnt that a deal has been struck to convert more than 100 trains into the first fleet powered by hydrogen fuel cell technology.

The trains, which are almost silent and have zero emissions, will operate at speeds of up to 90mph and release steam only as a by-product. The new trains, which will be called “Breeze”, will be employed on commuter and suburban lines by early 2021.
The Department for Transport is supporting the plan because it allows operators to scrap diesel trains without the need to install hugely expensive overhead power lines that are needed to operate electric carriages.

It has set a target of eradicating diesel altogether from the network by 2040.

Less than half of the British rail network is electrified and about 2,500 commuter trains run on diesel power.
Research has shown that parts of the network used frequently by diesel trains have pollution levels “significantly in excess” of European legal limits. This includes parts of Birmingham New Street and London Paddington stations.

methode%2Ftimes%2Fprod%2Fweb%2Fbin%2Fa7ef0012-11fa-11e9-9b5a-2f2c17a8b8fe.png


Alstom, the French multinational, is leading the project alongside Eversholt Rail, the rolling stock company. It has identified an Eversholt-owned fleet of Class 321 electric trains for the project.

The trains were built by British Rail in 1988 and are used on the Greater Anglia network. They will be phased out next year when the conversion to hydrogen power will start. Alstom has already built an entirely new hydrogen train — the first of its kind in the world — in Germany, with passenger services starting in September.

New images released by Alstom show that the existing four-carriage 321s will be reduced to three as part of the conversion process, which will be carried out at the company’s plant in Widnes, Cheshire. The front and rear third of the train will be used to house hydrogen gas storage tanks.

On the German train the hydrogen is stored on the roof but tanks will be shifted in the British model because of the greater physical constraints of the Victorian-built rail network in Britain.

Alstom said that the new trains could accelerate quicker than diesel engines and were cheaper to maintain. Just over 100 class 321s will be converted, depending on the order book.

It will be the first time anywhere in the world that an existing train fleet has been converted in this way.

Alstom said that it was in advanced talks with the Department for Transport and train companies with a view to securing orders for the trains, enabling them to start production early next year. Although the company refused to be drawn on the destination of the new trains, it is believed that they could be used on unelectrified lines in the northwest or northeast.

Nick Crossfield, Alstom’s UK managing director, said: “There is great opportunity to get better value for taxpayers by converting an existing fleet . . . It will reach the same top speed as a diesel and in terms of acceleration a train like this will perform much more effectively. But the main benefit is to the environment in terms of emissions, noise and the passenger experience.”

Andrew Jones, the rail minister, said: “Hydrogen train technology is an exciting innovation which has the potential to transform our railway, making journeys cleaner and greener by cutting CO2 emissions even further.”

• Train companies are being told to switch off diesel engines at the platform edge because of mounting concerns that passengers are being subjected to toxic fumes. Network Rail has introduced new rules at Birmingham New Street, the busiest station outside London, warning operators against leaving engines running for more than 12 minutes. New supervisors have been instructed to patrol platforms and have “polite conversations” with drivers if they see engines being left on for too long. Two of the station’s biggest operators, Virgin Trains and Cross Country, confirmed that they had already installed auto-shutdown technology on some trains if they were left idle for at least eight minutes. A national rail strategy published by the Department for Transport recently called for other operators to follow suit.
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/news/full-steam-ahead-for-hydrogen-trains-spzchrf8s
 
And from the US: (I take note of this due to the Stadler vehicle being used is to be built in the US in a more orthodox drive in Stadler's new factory there)
Zero-emission train from San Bernardino to Redlands would be first in North America

By STEVE SCAUZILLO | sscauzillo@scng.com | San Gabriel Valley Tribune
PUBLISHED: June 25, 2018 at 8:00 am | UPDATED: November 23, 2018 at 11:21 am

Once the San Bernardino County Transportation Authority completes a long-awaited passenger train between San Bernardino and Redlands, the agency will test an innovative technology that could transform train travel throughout Southern California.

The agency recently started utility work for the Redlands Passenger Rail Project, a nine-mile passenger train using three cab car trains running on clean diesel technology.

The agency also received a $30 million grant from the state to convert a fourth diesel train into a zero-emission unit that can move passengers without polluting the air or releasing greenhouse gases that contribute to global climate change.

This would be accomplished by swapping out the the diesel engines with a lithium-ion battery pack and possibly adding an overhead catenary fixture at the halfway point to re-charge the train’s batteries, said Carrie Schindler, director of transit and rail programs for the SBCTA.

Though still experimental, if the technology is successful, it would be the first battery-operated passenger train in North America, she said.

RDF-L-RAILLINE-06224.jpg




Zero-emission trains
The inland agency is working with Metrolink, the regional commuter rail service, to possibly test the battery-powered train on their routes.

“We are very excited. We are looking forward to bringing more transit choices to the area, especially ones that relieve congestion and reduce air pollution,” Schindler said on Thursday.

The non-polluting technology works on existing heavy rail infrastructure, which makes it applicable to other services, she said.

“Now we get to introduce new technology that can be implemented in other aspects of transit throughout Southern California, throughout California, throughout the nation,” Tim Watkins, chief of legislative and public affairs with SBCTA, told the Southern California News Group in May.

Trains running on fuel cells, a kind of battery that uses hydrogen and oxygen in a chemical reaction to make energy, are operating in Europe as emission-free trains.

For now, clean diesel
The $290 million Redlands passenger train will connect the San Bernardino Transit Center with the University of Redlands on an old freight route that once ran the Pacific Electric railway in the early 1900s, with in-between stations at Tippecanoe Avenue, New York Street and Downtown Redlands.

The passenger train service, named Arrow, will be powered by smaller, cleaner diesel engines that generate electricity, a more efficient propulsion system than traditional passenger trains, Schindler said.

Arrow train line construction — of the rails, bridges, at-grade gates and five stations — will start next year, with service operated by Omnitrans expected sometime in 2021, Watkins said. The service will begin with 25 daily round trips.

The cleaner diesel train is an interim step to a carbon-free train system that could debut in the next three or four years on the Arrow train route, Watkins said.

“I would have loved to have delivered a zero-emission train five years ago,” Schindler said.
https://www.redlandsdailyfacts.com/...ht-one-day-be-built-in-san-bernardino-county/
 
^It’s encouraging to see that somebody - and I mean *somebody else* - is putting some prototypes on the road and collecting operating experience with the technology.

The California pilot is notable because it emphasises that the application is for small, light trains on a low volume, off peak route. The comment about a mid-route recharging station is interesting - it’s a pretty short line.

Out of these small beginnings, better things will quite likely emerge.... but it makes clear that the best thing ML can do is to wait, and watch.... and get on with stringing wires. The technology is not ready for our heavier haul needs, not yet anyways.

- Paul
 
The California pilot is notable because it emphasises that the application is for small, light trains on a low volume, off peak route.
Agreed on all points. That was pretty much the "critique" I was going to add later. Note that even the Brits don't intend these for heavy haul commuter, these are for routes not yet electrified. And they might turn out to be more hassle than they're worth. Why do we need to do this as an experiment when someone else is?
The California pilot is notable because it emphasises that the application is for small, light trains on a low volume, off peak route. The comment about a mid-route recharging station is interesting - it’s a pretty short line.
And if it doesn't work as initially configured, the 'power module' is completely reconfigurable, or removable altogether! The rest of the train is completely re-usable in another mode. It's brilliant. And US made, to AAR regs with a waiver, and going into use on a number of US lines. What immediately struck me about that one is UPX use if the Stadler is available high-platform.
 
Last edited:
I don't understand why people think that Hydrail couldn't work on high capacity lines. These are not revolutionary trains but quite the opposite. These are very standard Alstom EMU trains that are sold all over the planet all the time. The only difference is that they run on electricity from the train itself and not from wires. Besides the electrical supply, these really are EMU 101 and run as high frequency suburban rail system all over the world.

If you think that Hydrail is moronic beyond belief then fine but where does this notion that they can handle high frequency routes come from? It truly perplexes me.
 
The notion is that there will be inevitable and unnecessary growing pains with disproportionate impact and cost if early implementation is in heavy service. Add to that concerns about the speed and efficiency of handling hydrogen itself and I’m with the crows that think hydrail is, at best, not ready for something on the scale of committing to for GO.
 
Last edited:
The story has already been posted, from a less of a PR source (The Times of London)(And even the London Times in these tight times for low cost copy 'sells' itself to 'promotions')
Make of this what you will. I'm posting this before someone else does to get in front of the story. I'll have a critique of it later:

Monday's Times of London features this:

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/news/full-steam-ahead-for-hydrogen-trains-spzchrf8s
I posted it in full because it's behind a paywall, but here's the crucial part missed by many (as I thought they would)
Alstom said that it was in advanced talks with the Department for Transport and train companies with a view to securing orders for the trains, enabling them to start production early next year. Although the company refused to be drawn on the destination of the new trains, it is believed that they could be used on unelectrified lines in the northwest or northeast.
 
The notion is that there will be inevitable and unnecessary growing pains with disproportionate impact and cost of early implementation is in heavy service. Add to that concerns about the speed and efficiency of handling hydrogen itself and I’m with th crows that think hydraulic is, at best, not ready for something on the scale of committing to for GO.

So don't commit to it. Simply get Alstom to lease a couple of hydrogen EMU trains ASAP and put in a small hydrogen fueling station and run them as extra trains on the UPX line. God knows they can't possibly be worse than the brown pieces of shit they are currently running. Remember Ontario has a very high level of expertise in hydrogen right now as the Alstom trains actually use technology from Hydrogentics which is a Mississauga based company.

Remember even if Ontario decides that it will go ahead with catenary, it won't be up and running until 2025 and we all know it won't make that deadline little alone come in on budget. That article from the UK is also very significant in that it clearly states that the new hydrogen trains will be used on both the commuter and SUBURBAN rail systems which is exactly what RER is. If the UK is willing to bet on 100 trains in 3 years surely even hyper timid and highly incompetent Metrolinx can get 2 up and running in a year.
 
Just to add to the above...…….the Port of Auckland announced last month that it will begin construction of NZ first hydrogen production and fueling station for the port. It will be used to fuel equipment, buses, and cars and will be in full operation by the end of 2019. If little NZ can manage this in in a year how can Ontario and Metrolinx not for one little line?
 
Just to add to the above.
...allow me!

31 Oct 2018
Complete rail network switch key to carbon footprint reduction - expert
10:48 am on 31 October 2018

KiwiRail needs to electrify all of the North Island's main trunk line and expand into the South Island as well if the country is serious about reducing its carbon footprint, an energy professor says.

The government has announced it plans to spend $35 million over the next four years refurbishing 15 electric trains, extending their life by 10 years.
KiwiRail freight trains use diesel locomotives in Wellington, switch to electric units in Palmerston North, then back to diesel in Hamilton.
The company had planned to scrap the electric trains by April next year, replacing them with Chinese-made diesel locomotives.
Massey University professor of sustainable energy Ralph Sims worked on the last Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change, which looked specifically at transport.

He said many people argued putting electric rail back into diesel was a backward step and the government's investment was wise.
Renewable electricity runs throughout the stretch of rail between Palmerston North and Hamilton.
"What we need to do of course is to extend it and go the whole length of the North Island and then we'll be saving even more greenhouse gases," he said.
Prof Sims said there had been a significant move away from the previous government's roads of national significance, but this government needed to go further, electrifying the main trunk line and the network in the South Island eventually.
"The more efficient we can make our rail system then we can attract more freight onto it and that takes the freight off the road, so electrification is a key part of that total equation."
Rail and Maritime Union general secretary Wayne Butson said the investment from the government would be a boon for some regions, such as Taumarunui, Taihape and Ōhakune.
He said those regions had rail workers on good terms and conditions, putting money into the local economy.
KiwiRail expects the refurbishment of the electric locomotives can create between four and eight extra jobs.
Mr Butson said this could mean the Hillside workshop in Dunedin, which was shut down five years ago by KiwiRail but has since been doing private work, could pick up again.
"There is probably going to have to be some reallocation ofPosted in Opinion January 05, 2019 - 10:20am Hutt workshops' current workload, which is immense, and actually I do envisage that some work will trickle down into Hillside and actually grow the workforce down there," he said.
Transport Minister Phil Twyford said the electrification of the main trunk line had to be on the government's horizon.
"It may be that we skip electrification and move straight to hydrogen fuel trains, but that's work that's yet to be done, but we certainly want to get the bulk of KiwiRail's operations off diesel and onto renewable sources."
He said the government was reviewing the role of rail in the country, including how it is funded and hoped to make an announcement in the next few months.
Copyright © 2018, Radio New Zealand
https://www.radionz.co.nz/news/nati...itch-key-to-carbon-footprint-reduction-expert

Analysis published just a few days back:
Posted in Opinion January 05, 2019 - 10:20am
[...]
Hypothetically a hydrogen train company could replace the South Island diesel train fleet with hydrogen trains, hydrogen production facilities and wind turbines to generate the power to make the hydrogen. Given enough generating capacity, which New Zealand has in the form of many consented but not built wind farms, hydrogen trains could be completely energy self-sufficient. This system would need backup storage capacity for when the wind is not blowing. This could either be hydrogen storage itself or something like a local pumped hydro-electric scheme. It is likely this whole system could be achieved for the South Island at a lower cost than the $3bn-plus cost to electrify the tracks option.
[...]
If a hydrogen train company or other hydrogen or electric battery transport mode companies had certainty about electricity prices then they are more likely to invest in renewable energy and carbon neutral transport schemes.

Unfortunately this opportunity for New Zealand Inc is being messed up by party politics. National Party Taranaki MP -Jonathan Young, in particular, playing fast and loose with the facts in media statements about making hydrogen from Taranaki’s natural gas. Claiming a proposed scheme “is built around the world’s highest-efficiency hydrogen production process coupled with a cutting-edge natural gas power generation system that includes inherent 100 per cent carbon capture”, when in fact this technology has yet to be proven effective internationally. In the meantime any hydrogen produced from natural gas will be CO2 emitting like other fossil fuels. The standard steam methane reforming production method emits 9 to 12 tones of CO2 for every ton of hydrogen produced. Even if carbon capture and storage is successful, the infrastructure required to store and distribute large quantities of hydrogen coming from Taranaki’s distant and isolated natural gas fields is another untested technology factor.
https://www.interest.co.nz/opinion/97543/brendon-harre-sees-future- hydrogen-trains-and-end-carbon era-hydrogen-powers-heavy

May I suggest some posters actually delve on the subject before spouting dogma?
God knows they can't possibly be worse than the brown pieces of shit they are currently running.
That would be methane production....close, but no rotting banana...
 

Back
Top