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GO Transit Electrification | Metrolinx

You real wild card is the cost and reliability implications of deep cycling those battery packs that 12-20x per day.
That's not a deep cycle -- with a 3x-4x safety margin, you can keep it in the sweet spot SoC (State-of-Discharge).

This isn't the "first 5km past Union" scenario.

This is the "Completely Catenary-Electrified All The Way To Aldershot Scenario".

If you are familiar with lithium battery management, you already know maintaining roughly a middle SoC (State of Charge) is the best. I've already sized the battery for an expected shallow discharge cycle. Approximately 200KWh capacity per BiLevel-equivalent coach should be sufficient for very shallow discharge cycles during what will usually be only 2 to 3 minutes of power-mising MP40-diesel-like acceleration and rest easy 10min-ish of speed-maintaining a coast (it takes relatively little power maintain speed on level grade, just merely the power difference between coasting versus maintaining speed), while consuming roughly only one-quarter of the battery's life for an average Aldershot-Hamilton. A good trip may use only one-sixth and a bad trip might use one-half, and a really terrible trip (GO shutdown) may use up more than a half. Most of the time, it would be shallow discharge, with the safety margin used up rarely, during long stuck periods that requires multiple accelerations and extended climate-control usage. It should be no problem, to hover approximately near 60% of the battery's capacity, and avoiding fully recharging the battery unless necessary (e.g. extremely cold winter days where extra heater operations are needed). One can get well over 10,000 charge cycle equivalents out of a lithium battery with some very tight cycling margins (e.g. bouncing discharge-recharge in the 40%-to-60% SoC instead of the typical 500-1000 for a 100%-to-0% that most smartphone users do). Not only in the count of back-and-fourth charge-discharge, but also the total watt-hours-discharged ever. (i.e. With good SoC and battery management, you can do more than 10x 25% shallow charge-discharge cycles and it damages less than a single 100%-to-0% deep discharge). For the really cold winter days and really hot summer days where climate control demands are rather extreme, it may be needed to charge the battery more fully all the way to 100% (giving a ~5x+ safety margin), but this move can be avoided most of the year.

Since the freight companies own Hamilton trackage that they don't want to sell, this can be a potentially more inexpensive alternative to building half-a-billion-dollar (probably way more by then) -- of freight-separating, when eventually extending 15-min electrified Lakeshore West RER to Hamilton -- we electrify as much as possible with catenary, and bridge this small gap with an affordably-sized battery that still has a sufficient safety margin.

See Figure 1. below:

1543228865507.png

Figure 1. The token CP section for running on battery power.

(Catenary to Aldershot is assumed in this scenario, but only on the two southmost tracks of the corridor between Aldershot and Burlington, with some trackwork required to make CN happy)
 
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Can someone explain why GO is planing electrification, using both electric locomotives and EMUs? Why not just go to a 100% EMU fleet, since those operate at much faster speeds?
 
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Can someone explain to you why GO is planing electrification, using both electric locomotives and EMUs? Why not just go to a 100% EMU fleet, since those operate at much faster speeds?
The best answer you will get is "compromise" to use the existing DD fleet without using diesel, although I have high doubts that will happen. They'll try and save cost by running the DD coaches and diesel locos together for as long as they can, and not buy electric locos, but will have heavily invested in single level EMUs due to the vastly superior performance for closely situated stations.

That would also save Metrolinx from erecting catenary beyond the limits planned for RER. What comes after that is anybody's guess...
 
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Can someone explain to you why GO is planing electrification, using both electric locomotives and EMUs? Why not just go to a 100% EMU fleet, since those operate at much faster speeds?

Isn't the none electric fleet meant for the lines where they can't electrify because they don't own the track?
 
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Can someone explain to you why GO is planing electrification, using both electric locomotives and EMUs? Why not just go to a 100% EMU fleet, since those operate at much faster speeds?

GO has decided they don't have the experience necessary to choose much of anything for operations. They're looking at both EMU and locos (and previously hydrail) to give the vendor the large number of options for how the vendor wants to build/operate the lines. A mix of equipment is a likely outcome given the mix of local and express service desired.

Effectively, GO is going to tender for service levels (which I hope includes a scale up over the decades) and provide a number of documents which support various configurations that a vendor might use to get the lowest bid.

Providing these options upfront is akin to the seller doing a home inspection and providing results to buyers. It can greatly shorten the time to close the deal and makes for much less headache having several 3rd parties all collecting data on their own (through you).
 
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GO has decided they don't have the experience necessary to choose much of anything for operations. They're looking at both EMU and locos (and previously hydrail) to give the vendor the large number of options for how the vendor wants to build/operate the lines. A mix of equipment is a likely outcome given the mix of local and express service desired.

Effectively, GO is going to tender for service levels (which I hope includes a scale up over the decades) and provide a number of documents which support various configurations that a vendor might use to get the lowest bid.

Providing these options upfront is akin to the seller doing a home inspection and providing results to buyers. It can greatly shorten the time to close the deal and makes for much less headache having several 3rd parties all collecting data on their own (through you).
Gave a 'like' to this, on the desperate hope your are correct. Verster's words on this, from the UT interview with him back in February this year (I'll try and quote and link later) were far less exacting. IIRC, the gist was "It's up to the....

Just checking the actual article, I'm realizing I've got to get this exactly right, but reading it now, and it's full of astounding quotes. Pardon my posting multiple ones here. Note that for the first one I post, Yurek in a headline story at TorStar today mentions (gist) "Subways can be either surface or underground".

From the Verster interview:

Union Station and GO RER: Metrolinx's Phil Verster on the Future
February 1, 2018 4:00 pm | by Jonathan English | 15 Comments
[...]
According to Verster, the proposed system would still be somewhat different from German S-Bahn or French RER systems, but it would share most of their essential characteristics. GO RER lines would be more like a subway, rather than the limited commuter services they are today.
[...]
At the heart of the GO RER network is Union Station. This is also its most significant choke point. At UrbanToronto, I have previously written about the issues with Union Station—in particular, the narrow platforms and access stairs—which result in serious congestion issues and limited capacity. “For us at Union, the bottleneck is not technically in moving trains,” Verster said. “The bottleneck is really the narrowness of platforms and the pedestrian flows off trains onto concourses and out of the station.” Union Station has nine access tracks from the west, and room for nine tracks from the east—more track capacity than all of the Paris RER lines combined (they move more than 13 times as many people as GO). Modernizing Union would provide all the capacity that could foreseeably be required, without the need for major new infrastructure.
[...]
For modern international stations, a platform width of 10 metres is generally considered to be standard; at Union, most platforms are five metres or even less. Verster argued that rebuilding the station to have wider platforms, combined with wider stairs and a wider walkway along the platform past the stairwells, will bring considerable safety as well as efficiency improvements. Additionally, he discussed plans to raise platforms to be level with the train doors, citing a statistic that level boarding results in a 90 percent decrease in boarding-related safety incidents. Level platforms also dramatically speed loading and unloading along the whole line. With level boarding, “you have much more operation flexibility and much speedier dwell times at stations. When you reduce dwell time, you speed up the whole journey. And 30 seconds at a station and ten station stops means five minutes on a journey, which is worth gold.”
[...]
In effect, GO RER would mimic overseas regional rail systems, with trains running from one side of the region to the other through downtown along dedicated track paths, which Verster says would “greatly add to our capacity through the corridor.” This problem, and possible solutions, was discussed in greater detail in an earlier article.

It is frankly exciting to hear a Metrolinx head talking in detail about finally developing clear plans to resolve these longstanding obstacles that stand in the way of real regional rail service.
[...]
***Verster explained that GO RER will be developed as a public-private design-build-finance-operate-maintain partnership, rather than Metrolinx developing the expertise in-house. The private partner consortium that will be building and operating the RER system will make many of the key decisions, particularly on technology and the trains themselves. “We are turning to the market and we’re being very flexible in terms of what the market can offer us on RER,” he said, “to build a network, to build a fleet, and to build a service formula that require our timetable commitments.”***
[...]
One of the key questions for RER is the trains themselves. Today, GO operates an exclusive fleet of diesel-locomotive-hauled bilevel cars. Most international regional rail operations use electric multiple units (EMUs), owing to their rapid acceleration and braking, which shortens journeys and enables trains to run more closely together. Verster explained that EMUs also offer far more flexibility in terms of shortening trains to match capacity to demand in off-peak periods. There are significant performance differences between EMUs and the current bilevel trains, even if the latter are hauled by electric locomotives. Mixing trains that have different performance adds complexity to signalling and infrastructure planning. Infrastructure designed for vehicles with limited performance (freight trains are also a problem in this regard) is considerably more expensive than infrastructure designed exclusively for high-performance EMUs. However, as Verster explained, it would likely be cost-prohibitive to entirely replace GO’s enormous fleet of 1,000 bilevel cars. He did leave open the possibility of a different approach, since the final decision on the fleet composition will be in the hands of Metrolinx’s private partner.

There remain some other significant questions that the private consortium will need to answer. The bilevels have much lower door levels than standard international regional rail trains. Now that platforms are being raised to match the bilevel floors, will GO RER use unique, custom EMUs to match these floor levels? Will some of the platforms be further raised when they arrive? Or will non-level boarding be accepted on the EMUs, at least temporarily? How will the signalling and infrastructure be built to handle very different types of trains without unduly reducing capacity or adding to construction cost? Will a modern international-standard signalling system, like ERTMS, be acquired, given that traditional North American mainline signalling systems are not particularly well-adapted for rapid transit operation? Most important, however, is a question that can only be answered by governments: can a fare structure be developed so that transferring from bus to RER is as simple and costless as transferring from TTC bus to subway is today, so that the RER can truly become a rapid transit backbone for the region?
[...]
http://urbantoronto.ca/news/2018/02/union-station-and-go-rer-metrolinxs-phil-verster-future

There's even far more than I remembered that Verster states, that in retrospect, was profound and prescient, and actually addresses a lot of what is being stated now, albeit Verster is now repeating it in a resigned manner, as opposed to the altruistic one at the time of the interview.

Continues next pane...
 
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Continued from above:

Contrast and align some of his comments to this:
Opening relief line before Yonge subway extension ‘makes sense,’ Ontario transportation minister says
By BEN SPURRTransportation Reporter
Sat., Dec. 1, 2018
[...]
Yurek also defended the government’s proposal to use the TTC subway to serve the suburbs outside of Toronto. Critics argue the GO Transit network, which is already owned by the province, was designed to serve those regions.

He said that after uploading the subway, the province would use a mix of the TTC and the GO network to serve the entire Greater Toronto and Hamilton Area. GO trains may work best in some contexts, he said, but in others “it makes sense to build subways, either above or below ground.”
[...]
https://www.thestar.com/news/gta/20...nse-ontario-transportation-minister-says.html

I highlighted one of the most applicable sections in the Verster interview with ***[...]***, but they're all dynamite if applied into other contexts.

I think Verster's interview shows the seeds already planted for 'beyond DBFOM'...and the Cons now talking about harvesting the concept. Again, I don't think there's much choice to do it any other way, but I'm terrified of how this regime will do it through the back door, and in their own interests, not that of "The People".

The large "consortiums" ironically will have more altruism and pride in this turning out right (as well as being in their econo-business interest)...and looking at how they've done this in other nations, and learned the best and worst ways of doing this. I'm hoping for a better outcome than if the Cons did this 'in house'. And for me, that means QP having the least amount of input possible into a 'winning proposal'. I do want to see the Feds involved though, for a number of reasons beyond being for the 'Good of the Nation' (actual legal term). It means more protection for municipal powers that QP would otherwise seize.

And it also has the huge benefit of VIA HFR and Metrolinx sharing track and catenary from the north-northeast of the GTHA into the core, and looped back up the Georgetown Corridor. Killing one fell swoop with two birds from the bush in the hand...
 
The person who called it madness is incompetent, biased, and disingenuous. They talk about trying to get large 12 car double decker commuter trains as hydrogen as being `madness` well no kidding but who the hell ever proposed that? Electrification is only for the RER section of the GO network with the exception of Barrie and only God knows why they are electifying the entire line. The monster commuter rail GO trains will still be diesel after RER is fully implemented so why even bother bringing those trains and servicer up?

If they don`t want Hydrail then fine but don`t be disingenuous as to why it won`t work. If people feel it`s a bad choice then have a thoughtful discussion based on facts and not on hyperbole.
 
The person who called it madness is incompetent, biased, and disingenuous. They talk about trying to get large 12 car double decker commuter trains as hydrogen as being `madness` well no kidding but who the hell ever proposed that? Electrification is only for the RER section of the GO network with the exception of Barrie and only God knows why they are electifying the entire line. The monster commuter rail GO trains will still be diesel after RER is fully implemented so why even bother bringing those trains and servicer up?

If they don`t want Hydrail then fine but don`t be disingenuous as to why it won`t work. If people feel it`s a bad choice then have a thoughtful discussion based on facts and not on hyperbole.
I struggle to see how the people which that very detailed and in my view well-researched newspaper article quoted could possibly be more "incompetent, biased, and disingenuous" than the person who wrote above post...^^
 
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Absolutely agreed with @Urban Sky as that pertains to the *present practicality* even if hydrail proves itself the winner over catenary for future needs in some respect. Electrification is needed now, and using a proven system, and that's the system that both Germany and France continue to believe in and erect: catenary, even though both are hosts of hydrail development. Hydrail is an experiment.

Meanwhile, the Financial Times has a leading article today relevant to the subject, but not directly. "Train" is mentioned only once:
While fuel cells are unlikely to compete with batteries for small passenger cars because of the latter’s continued reduction in costs, they could play a role in larger vehicles such as trucks and buses, as well as in ships and trains.
Hydrogen power: China backs fuel cell technology
Producers are buying foreign tech but industry must build for future after subsidies
https://www.ft.com/content/27ccfc90...egmentId=080b04f5-af92-ae6f-0513-095d44fb3577
 

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