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GO Transit Electrification | Metrolinx

What I find fascinating about this poster is their default argumentation style appears to be aggressive Googling and copy-pasta, which gums up the thread, but then even after the thousands of words they just discovered are waded through there's still no basis for the crazily bold claims they advance.

Nothing has happened to EMU technology in the last five years that magically makes them "multiples, if not magnitudes" quieter than DMUs, diesel locos, etc. You are engaged in faith based debate.


I think it's well understood by anyone that's semi-intelligently followed Toronto transit debates over the past decade that the Weston Community Coalition are amongst the region's finest purveyors of high-grade artisinal codswollop.



So let me get this right, you're calling noise and vibration technical reports written by professional acoustic engineers "biased" but the various claims advanced by the Weston NIMBYs, the Junction NIMBYs and Sorauren NIMBYs are more credible because all three of them agreed that electrification would be amazing?
Just copying in your post so it doesn't disappear. I suggest you read above. (Edit: Even better, access the report, and quote sections. And yes, GO and ML bias the slant of some, if not many reports)(some, prepared by technical staff and not politically edited, are very good)
 
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Is that the best you can do? You're not even worthy of a serious reply. You epitomize knee-jerk NIMBYs. It's a shame, as some NIMBY's have an excellent case.

You don't.

I think the point is whooshing right over your head.

I am no NIMBY. I live in neither Riverdale nor Weston, and happen to think getting very frequent electric trains to run through those communities would be a good thing for the whole region.

But the cause of transit advocacy isn't helped when people decide on the basis of faith that electric trains will do a bunch of magical things that they won't. Like be as quiet as electric gliders or subway trains through "Hillcrest station" or wherever.

A single electric train will be slightly quieter than a single diesel train.

Lots of electric trains will be somewhat quieter than lots of diesel trains.

But that doesn't mean that lots of electric trains will be quieter than the smaller number of diesel trains that operate today.

Hence, when the professional types did a noise study of Riverdale, comparing noise levels of today with 30 minute diesel service with noise levels of tomorrow with 7.5 minute electric service, lo and behold, there is more total noise in the future--unless you're seriously telling me that something you found on the first page of Google results has given you the confidence to claim the technical findings of this EA are fundamentally flawed, in which case I think we're all wasting our time here.

Based on these technical findings, some people in Riverdale are getting noise walls, and some aren't, and the noise walls that are being built are going to top out at 5 m high, that's where the NIMBY rancour is being created.

You're more than welcome to stand on the corner of Jones and Boultbee wearing a sandwich board saying "Be cool everyone, the Weston Community Coalition and this website I found told me it will actually get quieter in the future" but I don't recommend it.
 
An anecdote - a colleague of mine was part of a consultative process where a gun-toting agency proposed to rent time from a local open-air gun range to provide more practice time for their officers. The residents protested the potential increase in noise as the use of the range would go from occasional to more frequent. To smooth things, the agency enlisted a sound expert to provide hard data and invited all to a public meeting. Before the meeting, the expert's report was released - it stated that at the distance involved, the measured noise of the range was roughly equivalent to the measured decibel level of a ballpoint pen clicking in a quiet room. So, at the public meeting, the concerned community members all came equipped with ballpoint pens, and when the expert took the podium to present, they all clicked their ballpoint pens repeatedly. It was quite effective, and pretty noisy.

The folks along this line have been accustomed to one GO train in each direction every hour. Now they are facing the prospect of two GO trains in each direction every 7.5 minutes (one for LSE and one for Unionville). The measurable sound levels are not really the impact, it's the clickety clack and doppler "Vrooom" of each passing train. The precise decibel level is fairly irrelevant, the added "vroooms" will be heard regardless of train type or propulsion method. All trains make noise.

The sound studies are important as a way of demonstrating that sound barriers etc will be effective in mitigating the noise, and that the trains are moderately noisy but not as deafening as the naysayers may wax hysteric. But - without a doubt, the community is taking a hit for the greater good. Promising them a silent future because there is a few db's difference between train types, and having a silly debate about how quiet a particular train type might be, is not helpful.

- Paul
 
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A single electric train will be slightly quieter than a single diesel train.
An EMU will be multiples quieter at 35 mph. Chart projects @30mph 8 or more dBA reduction, about 1/3 the level of diesel, a considerably greater reduction than erecting a sound wall for diesel. Vibration will be measured on a power algortithm dB, and will be one tenth that of diesel loco hauled v. EMU @ 50 feet. (soil conditions and topography will vary this up or down depending on location)

All discussed in the report, and various other ones. And discussed much to the satisfaction of many communities in the world where commuter lines have been electrified, and EMUs run instead of diesel loco-hauled. Electrical passenger rail propulsion is used for a number of reasons, all desirable, some of them highly desirable. Queen's Park is grossly overdue to announce the beginning of electrification, in fact they're avoiding it.

As for the Weston Clean Air Coalition, here's what they claim, as stated in a court action:
[...]
Electrifying the corridor would further permit
the use of electric
locomotives, which are also 4 dB quieter than their diesel counterparts.
56
[...]
http://www.cleantrain.ca/wp-content/uploads/2012/11/FINAL-Amended-CTC-Factum.pdf

And studies prove them correct. Add a soundwall, and that's reduced another 3dB again, albeit they didn't state what weighting they used for their dB reference. 3 dB, (if 3 dBA) is one half. That alone is a multiple.
 
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An EMU will be multiples quieter at 35 mph. Chart projects @30mph 8 or more dBA reduction, about 1/3 the level of diesel, a considerably greater reduction than erecting a sound wall for diesel. Vibration will be measured on a power algortithm dB, and will be one tenth that of diesel loco hauled v. EMU @ 50 feet. (soil conditions and topography will vary this up or down depending on location)

All discussed in the report, and various other ones. And discussed much to the satisfaction of many communities in the world where commuter lines have been electrified, and EMUs run instead of diesel loco-hauled. Electrical passenger rail propulsion is used for a number of reasons, all desirable, some of them highly desirable. Queen's Park is grossly overdue to announce the beginning of electrification, in fact they're avoiding it.
Your confidence in your ability to figure this all out and know things that everyone else doesn't know is... quite something.

Professional acoustic engineers used expensive proprietary software and calculated train noise for over 100 simulated receptor sites along the segment of Lakeshore East in question, and got this delightful chart of data.

I'm going to go with that. You do you.
 
I'm a sound technologist, worked in three nations, doing component development (mostly transformers) in Europe. I'll go with that.

Meantime, from that GO report:
upload_2017-7-23_18-38-40.png

In other words, based on outdated assumptions, which might just have something to do with the disclaimer the company posts.
The results claimed in those charts beggar belief. They find the diesel hauled (the status quo) is far quieter than DMU and EMU.
Not surprisingly, others find the opposite. I'll go with the findings of other major advanced nations and suppliers. They're projected in planning, and proven in practice.

Gosh, do you think there just might be something wrong with that ML Report? Perhaps you don't?

GO looks at a quieter ride on Montreal’s electric commuter train
By Tess KalinowskiTransportation reporter, TorStar
Fri., Oct. 31, 2014

Mayor-elect John Tory and Metrolinx want to electrify the rails around Toronto. The Star took a ride on Canada’s only other electric commuter line between Montreal and Deux-Montagnes, Que.

The only mainline electric train in Canada, according to Toronto rail expert Greg Gormick, the Deux-Montagnes was a natural comparator for Metrolinx officials planning the electrification of the GO system. They haven’t done a full analysis and will only say what’s obvious to a passenger — it’s a quieter, faster ride.
[...]
Paul Dorval of Agence Métropolitaine de Transport in Montreal, which operates the line, says he can’t see why the GO project wouldn’t doable in the 10-year horizon the Ontario government has set. An electric GO — or SmartTrack, to mayor-elect John Tory — will be a more efficient system and a better ride for commuters, he said.
[...]
“There is lots of economy as far as energy. Electricity costs less than diesel. You will have less pollution. You will have better acceleration so maybe you can reduce a little bit of your travel time,” said Dorval.

Then, there’s the noise — electric trains make less of it.

The quiet is conspicuous on a midday, mid-week trip when there are few riders outbound from Central Station.
[...]
https://www.thestar.com/news/gta/20...ide_on_montreals_electric_commuter_train.html

The results projected from the report you post contradicts the ones from the Georgetown Corridor one, which at least showed (at approx 80 mph) a 2dBA decrease in noise electric loco v diesel loco.

More than ever, I have to take a lot of ML's claims with cynicism. At this rate, ML could revolutionize the rail world. Perhaps not...
 

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I'm going to go with that. You do you

Didn't even have to take the block off to know who this was....

Always thinks he knows more than working professionals. And will flat out deny facts when they contradict his narrative....which is usually just a defence of his starting train of thought. He can't abide being wrong. Guess that what happens to old retired guys with too much time on their hands.
 
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Curiously, all the ML and GO noise and vibration studies I've accessed are based on the same MoE prescribed parameters, and yet get starkly different results. As to why is a good question.

Here's what ML state to Cnclr Ainslee:
[...]
My latest correspondence to Metrolinx was replied to on October 28, 2016. Metrolinx advised that in "completing their comprehensive noise and vibration assessment" that they have found that "only one location (90 Morningside Avenue) meets the criteria" for possibly investigating if noise barriers are required. I do not support or agree with this assessment.

After speaking with many residents specifically those who border the project area, the noise they currently experience is very loud, an additional track they feel and I agree will be deafening.

I would urge everyone to visit the noise and vibration impact assessment study found at www.Metrolinx.com/guildwoodpickering to review the study and send your comments to Metrolinx expressing your concerns if you feel that sound barriers are required for the areas that border the Lakeshore East Corridor Expansion line.

I will continue to advocate on your behalf and need your support as the community voice that is directly affected.
[...]
http://www.paulainslie.com/Paul_Ainslie_MetrolinxExpansion.html

Here's the linked reference above:
Guildwood to Pickering Project TPap
  • Email
  • Print
  • Notice of Completion

    To support RER, improvements are needed between Guildwood and Pickering. Currently, there are two tracks between Galloway Road in Scarborough and Frenchman’s Bay in Pickering (“Durham Junction”) and this bottleneck creates an operational challenge for the entire line, meaning service isn’t as reliable or flexible as it could be.

    An environmental assessment to add a third track on this section of the corridor was completed on January 11, 2017 using the streamlined Transit Project Assessment Process. With these approvals in place, Metrolinx can proceed with the improvements needed to increase service, including: adding a third track, widening two bridges, and performing three grade separations.

    To stay up to date on the progress of this project, please visit the Lakeshore East corridor website.
  • [...]
  • Appendix B4 - Noise and Vibration Impact
  • [...]
Appendix B4:
[...]
Disclaimers
[...]
upload_2017-7-23_19-48-22.png

[...]
http://www.metrolinx.com/en/regiona...and_Vibration_Impact_Assessment_Report_EN.pdf

There appears to be a gross lack of consistency with prior reports albeit as this contractor states in disclaimers:
upload_2017-7-23_19-51-57.png

[...continues at length...]
http://www.metrolinx.com/en/regiona...and_Vibration_Impact_Assessment_Report_EN.pdf

I can see why the Auditor has had such a heyday with ML...

As to electric multiple units being considerably quieter than diesel hauled coach, especially at speeds for RER distance, my position stands. ML don't help their own cause by posting what appears to be highly conflicting study results.
 

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MTO's noise guidelines state that if a proposed highway project may result in >5dB or will make for a total noise increase over 65dB, MTO is to merely investigate mitigation (e.g. noise walls, berms) and determine 'technical and economic feasibility.' Basically, if they determine they can't construct it without difficulty or it's too damn expensive, they don't have to do anything, and can negotiate with a property owner over compensation.

Vibration, I can understand. But that these people are complaining over a 4.5dB increase in noise makes me laugh.
 
MTO's noise guidelines state that if a proposed highway project may result in >5dB or will make for a total noise increase over 65dB, MTO is to merely investigate mitigation (e.g. noise walls, berms) and determine 'technical and economic feasibility.' Basically, if they determine they can't construct it without difficulty or it's too damn expensive, they don't have to do anything, and can negotiate with a property owner over compensation.

Vibration, I can understand. But that these people are complaining over a 4.5dB increase in noise makes me laugh.
That's an excellent way of putting it. It's by analogy that Metrolinx must make their case. It doesn't help that they publish study samples that are preceded by provisos that pretty much debase what the samples *apparently* indicate. And then ML themselves group dB levels in "inconsequential" "somewhat significant" "significant" and "very significant" impact groups (my gist of terms they use, I'll paste in the actual text later). Even adding reference to the use of dB with "A" "B" or other weightings, and for pressure v. power ratios is still only as meaningful as other factors, such as *distance from source*, *height from source*, *geologically absorptive properties* etc. A quick analogy: Blaring music in sports auditorium v. a padded seat, acoustically damped and full of spectator listening hall.

That highway barrier comparison is an excellent one, because it's much more 'like for like'. And on that note, we all know how much quieter electric vehicles are than internal combustion ones. Sure, the big truck wheels are still going to whine, but that brings in another difference in 'noise' perception: The *nature* of the noise, the number of harsh, spiked, dissonant frequencies, for instance. Or as a listener might phrase it "loud but sweet" is easier to live with than "quiet but obnoxious".

Psychoacoustics is a specialty field in itself, there's even an area of medical/physics specialty beyond that, name escapes me at this moment, and incredibly, there's been little to no discussion about that.

A finger nail scratching on a blackboard doesn't have to be that loud to be obnoxious, if not intolerable. Again, the highway analogy takes all of that into consideration. (Edit: Excellent case in point: those small engined gasoline powered mopeds that make you want to swat them...or worse. Not that loud, would easily pass a muffler test, but ffffing irritating and obnoxious)

And of course, a factor almost all of us will relate to far more than the average affected listener: We love the sound of trains! Again, since none of the lines being discussed host any freight other than slow and temporally separated ones, and only occasionally, a whole segment of 'dissonant sound' can be eliminated from the area of concern, let alone health concerns of what the freight carried is.

Edit: To illustrate the 'height of sound source' factor: It's easy to notice when an airplane goes through a thick cloud how the sound (the higher frequencies are always absorbed much more readily) is often almost completely absorbed until the aircraft re-emerges, and you can hear it again. The same rate of absorption increases dramatically the closer the source and listener get to land, the more lush the vegetation, or disbursed the hard features (large rocks, etc) the more sound is absorbed and/or disbursed. Sound walls are often built of a zig-zag and absorptive nature (resin bound open fibres) to maximize both absorption and disbursement.

And another factor, train length, which makes an amazing difference:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F-7Chrx-sX8

(Note that RER in Toronto will be travelling at a fraction of this speed, and be the square root of intensity for every time velocity is halved)
 
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So when is electrification actually suppose to start ie shovels in the ground for the poles? I know they are suppose to be done by 2025 but that means little until they actually start as timelines are easily changed.
 
So when is electrification actually suppose to start ie shovels in the ground for the poles? I know they are suppose to be done by 2025 but that means little until they actually start as timelines are easily changed.
Probably as soon as they figure out what to do about union station. Currently there are some issues they need to work out with the "historic bush shed" they saved.
 
The need to complete the TPAP first. It only began in June, and will probably won't be complete and approved by early 2018.
Presumably, the first RFQ could be going out later in 2018, with first contracts awarded by mid-2019.
 
Standing at a station just outside London UK in 2012 for an hour shooting photos and videos of high speed trains as well local, the noise level was a lot lower than that the small number of diesel at the Exhibition Station at Peak time.

This is also the last tube stop for X line.

The high speed trains 9 cars long were heard and seen under 20 seconds

Here is a Flying Virgin Rail @ Harrow & Wealdstone Station, England

Overhead View of inbound Virgin Rail @ Harrow & Wealdstone Station, England

Virgin Rail & LondonMidland action @ Harrow & Wealdstone Station, England

Outbound COFC train @ Harrow & Wealdstone Station
 

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