News   Jul 19, 2019
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GO Transit Electrification (Metrolinx, Proposed)

steveintoronto

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https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/hydrogen-bus-doubledecker-london-tfl-sadiq-khan-air-pollution-a8909326.html

They're still not trains, and won't be used on many routes due to imposed limitations.

More than £5 million of funding is being provided by European bodies and £1 million from the Office of Low Emission Vehicles.
https://tfl.gov.uk/info-for/media/press-releases/2019/may/world-first-hydrogen-double-decker-buses-to-help-tackle-london-s-toxic-air

London's now kicking themselves that they got rid of their trolley buses. New ones are making a comeback in other cities, and they're a hell of a lot cheaper than hydrogen cell ones, not to mention the amount of times they're refuelled is...well...none.
Battery trolleybuses ready for heavy duty climate action | National ...
https://www.nationalobserver.com/.../battery-trolleybuses-ready-heavy-duty-climate-a...

Dec 19, 2018 - New battery trolleybus lines are also being installed for bus rapid transit lines. Bus rapid transit (BRT) utilizes bus lanes, typically in the center of ...
Innovative Li-Ion hybrid trolleybuses on new line | CIVITAS
https://civitas.eu/measure/innovative-li-ion-hybrid-trolleybuses-new-line
Trolleybuses in Gdynia are extremely popular and are even nicknamed by the people. In order to increase the attractiveness of this silent and local zero ...
Lots more on Google...
Battery trolleybuses ready for heavy duty climate action
By Eric Doherty in Opinion | December 19th 2018
Eric Doherty is a Victoria, B.C. based transportation planning consultant who attended the 6thInternational e-bus conference.

[...]
“It’s a no brainer . . .to use electric buses which are powered with in motion charging,” said Erik Lenz of Kiepe Electric at the e-bus conference. Solingen’s transit agency has stopped ordering fossil fuel buses and is using their existing trolley wire network to charge battery trolleybuses. “It is a very efficient system, and that’s why they went for it.”

Cities with existing trolleybus wire networks (such as Lyon, Vancouver, Seattle and San Francisco, Shanghai and Bejing, and over 300 other trolleybus cities around the world) already have powerful charging systems in place for electric buses.

New battery trolleybus lines are also being installed for bus rapid transit lines. Bus rapid transit (BRT) utilizes bus lanes, typically in the center of the road, and other features to make bus service faster and more convenient.) Before the conference, I rode the BRT line in Castellón, Spain, which is about 10 years old. The quiet electric buses run connected to overhead trolley wires on a car-free bus lanes for much of the route, but run off-wire through Castellón’s charming historical center. A new battery trolleybus BRT line will open in Rimini, Italy in 2019. Some European trolleybus cities (including Lyon, France and Zurich, Switzerland) are expanding their already extensive bus lane networks so their transit riders don’t get stuck in traffic.

Trolleybus BRT lines are not isolated to Europe. Two of the three BRT lines in Bejing, China have been converted to operate with trolleybuses. And San Francisco is constructing a BRT corridor on an existing trolleybus line. The oldest trolleybus BRT line is in Quito, Ecuador, in operation since 1995 and widely used by the public.

Since BRT lines are less expensive and quicker to build than other forms of rapid transit, electric BRT is a crucial climate solution – you don’t have to be 15 years old to know humanity is running out of time.

Experts from cities such as Berlin and Stockholm told the e-bus conference that different types of electric bus charging systems are required for different transit lines. Buses that charge overnight work best for smaller buses that don’t travel far per day. Electric buses that stop and charge at fast chargers have a role on moderately demanding lines. But the heavy lifting is best done by battery electric trolleybuses, which are the most practical technology for large buses on the busiest and most demanding routes.

Using other types of electric buses on the most demanding routes would require buying and operating more buses, with each bus driving a shorter distance per day. This would be very expensive in large cities where land to park and charge buses is not readily available. [...]
https://www.nationalobserver.com/2018/12/19/opinion/battery-trolleybuses-ready-heavy-duty-climate-action
 
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ssiguy2

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Trolley buses work fine and are ideal in places like Vancouver where there are steep hills and the diesels are painfully slow. Trolley buses are also quiet although they do tend to jerk a lot so there are usually not as comfortable especially if you are standing. The trolley buses save a lot on fuel costs and are of course zero emissions which is wonderful but maintenance of the trolley wires is expensive. Of course my person peeve is that all the wires make the urban environment look like hell but as we have debated before, that's a personal preference.

Catenary is fine and has a proven track record. It also makes a lot of sense for expansion in Europe because most of the catenary core system and major hubs are already using catenary and therefore have all the infrastructure in place and this is particularly true in more suburban systems like a RER or even GO commuter. Toronto however doesn't have one foot of electrical infrastructure in place...…….Toronto is starting from scratch just as 90% of the US would be. This is why NA is viewed as, over the long-term, a bigger market for hydrogen than Europe. This is why the long sought after Fraser Valley Rail that is finally being truly considered would be hydrogen. In fact no other technology is even being considered as they want zero emissions but not the massive initial costs of catenary.
 

steveintoronto

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Toronto however doesn't have one foot of electrical infrastructure in place.
Errr...sure. My computer runs on steam. Coal getting difficult to find though...

Meantime:
15 May 2019
[...]
UK: Alstom is hopeful of confirming an order before the end of this year for its Breeze hydrogen multiple-unit trains being developed in partnership with leasing company Eversholt Rail, suggesting that the first trains could enter service ‘as early as 2022’.

Unveiling a scale model of the three-car HMU at the Railtex trade fair on May 14, Head of Business Development & Marketing for Alstom UK & Ireland Mike Muldoon said ‘the momentum continues to build around hydrogen trains in the UK. We believe they have a key role to play in helping the railway meet government targets to remove diesel trains by 2040.’

Whilst accepting that electrification is preferable for high speed main lines and busy suburban routes, Muldoon suggested that the re-engineered fuel cell trainsets could play a valuable role on regional routes during a 15 to 20-year transition period. ‘Brand new designs for hydrogen trains will come when the market is there’, he predicted.
[...]
https://www.railwaygazette.com/news/news/europe/single-view/view/breeze-hydrogen-multiple-unit-order-expected-soon.html
 
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Rainforest

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This is why the long sought after Fraser Valley Rail that is finally being truly considered would be hydrogen. In fact no other technology is even being considered as they want zero emissions but not the massive initial costs of catenary.
Dependent on the expected frequency of Fraser Valley Rail, hydrail may be a perfect solution there.

That's not necesarily the case for more frequent major lines in GTA.
 

ssiguy2

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The first hydrogen trains in Lower Saxony have been a success and the biggest proof is that Frankfurt has just decided to place an order for the same Alstom Coradia iLint hydrogen trains for it's non-electrified system. The trains will be articulated with seating for 160 passengers and the order is for 27 trains valued at CDN$750 million and will be deployed on 4 separate routes by 2022. This is very much a suburban system of metro Frankfurt and the trains have a top speed of 140km/hr, a range of 600km per tank, and a tank refill takes about 7 to 10 minutes.

Frankfurt has no hydrogen trains or any real hydrogen infrastructure yet the trains will be hitting the tracks in 3 years. Electrifying GO is estimated to cost at least $1.5 billion so for that money GO could buy an entire 54 train fleet. As for the idea that installing the hydrogen fueling stations being expensive and time consuming, that is bunk. In fact the current Lower Saxony Hydrail actually just uses temporary hydrogen fueling stations with no problems and the permanent ones aren't being deployed until 2021.
 
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steveintoronto

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Frankfurt has no hydrogen trains or any real hydrogen infrastructure yet the trains will be hitting the tracks in 3 years.
Well they'd best get a move on, hadn't they?

In the event:
Deputy SPD leader Uwe Santjer emphasized that hydrogen could be generated from electricity directly from wind farms on the high seas and brought to shore by ship. “Lower Saxony can become a flagship country in terms of hydrogen,” said Santjer. Cuxhaven could according to his statements become an appropriate model location.

Since September 2018, two hydrogen fuel cell trains have been operating on the Cuxhaven-Buxtehude railway for the first time. In Lower Saxony, a 100-megawatt power-to-gas pilot plant is to start in 2022, which will generate hydrogen or methane gas from green electricity.
How can hydrogen be generated? The plans are to generate energy from offshore wind farms in the North Sea and then transport them by ship to the coast. “Lower Saxony can become a flagship country in terms of hydrogen,” said Uwe Santjer, Deputy SPD Group Chairman.
https://fuelcellsworks.com/news/environment-minister-olaf-lies-announces-hydrogen-strategy-for-lower-saxony/

It seems you overlooked including that cost in your calculations, let alone other needed support and costs.
 

crs1026

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The trains will be articulated with seating for 160 passengers and the order is for 27 trains valued at CDN$750 million and will be deployed on 4 separate routes by 2022. This is very much a suburban system of metro Frankfurt and the trains have a top speed of 140km/hr, a range of 600km per tank, and a tank refill takes about 7 to 10 minutes.

Frankfurt has no hydrogen trains or any real hydrogen infrastructure yet the trains will be hitting the tracks in 3 years. Electrifying GO is estimated to cost at least $1.5 billion so for that money GO could buy an entire 54 train fleet. As for the idea that installing the hydrogen fueling stations being expensive and time consuming, that is bunk. In fact the current Lower Saxony Hydrail actually just uses temporary hydrogen fueling stations with no problems and the permanent ones aren't being deployed until 2021.
Seating of 160 puts these trains in the same capacity range as a single GO bilevel. $750M for 27 GO coaches? We need more capacity even for UPE or midday/weekend 2WAD.

This is a very promising development, but it leaves us in wait and watch mode. Let them deploy in 2022, get three years’ hands-on experience, and let the technology continue to develop. Meanwhile someone can begin writing codes and standards for hydrogen handling in relation to North American building standards. In a best case scenario, there will be a marketable railcar available for order in 2025. Sorry, but it will take that long for the technology to mature, as I’m sure it will.

Btw, the report on the Amtrak accident in Oregon just came out, and it contained negative findings re crashworthiness of the railcars which were built to European standards and allowed in North American service under an exemption. I expect there will be a backlash against such exemptions. So we may need a heavier carbody for our trains, which may affect the performance capability of what’s available.

- Paul
 

steveintoronto

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Btw, the report on the Amtrak accident in Oregon just came out, and it contained negative findings re crashworthiness of the railcars which were built to European standards and allowed in North American service under an exemption. I expect there will be a backlash against such exemptions. So we may need a heavier carbody for our trains, which may affect the performance capability of what’s available.
https://www.seattletimes.com/seattle-news/transportation/wsdot-to-replace-its-talgo-railcars-like-those-in-the-2017-amtrak-crash-near-dupont-as-soon-as-possible/

https://www.ntsb.gov/news/events/Documents/Dupont-Abstract.pdf

https://www.seattletimes.com/tag/amtrak-train-derailment/
 
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ssiguy2

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The Oregon accident was because the train was going too fast near a corner. Cities all over the planet are already using Alstom Coradia with an excellent safety record. If this is an cheap excuse then single-level EMUs are not a non-option because Toronto is "special' and I can only guess that the UPX will be shit down tomorrow and ditto for Ottawa's O-Train..
 
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dowlingm

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The first hydrogen trains in Lower Saxony have been a success and the biggest proof is that Frankfurt has just decided to place an order for the same Alstom Coradia iLint hydrogen trains for it's non-electrified system. The trains will be articulated with seating for 160 passengers and the order is for 27 trains valued at CDN$750 million and will be deployed on 4 separate routes by 2022.
Instead of betting the farm on these, why not replace the O-Train Lint powertrains instead?
 

steveintoronto

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Vive la difference!

I have some trepidations on the "Made in Quebec" aspect, but the overall gist is in stark contrast to Ontario's:
MONTREAL — Quebec Premier Francois Legault says his government will move to electrify transportation systems, buildings and businesses in order to reduce oil consumption in Quebec by 40 per cent by 2030.

He made the announcement today as his party held a general council meeting in Montreal.

Legault said his plan to electrify Quebec will require massive investments, which he said could be unlocked by reviewing the management of the government’s Green Fund and by increasing funding for infrastructure planning.

He said that from now on his government will only finance public transit projects that are electric and that are built mostly in Quebec, and will take steps to ensure that all new public buildings be powered by clean energy as of 2020.

Legault also tasked his transport minister with seven different projects, including the expansion of an existing subway line and a light-rail system being built in Montreal, as well as tramway projects for Quebec City and Montreal’s South Shore.
[...]
https://nationalpost.com/news/canada/legault-announces-plan-to-electrify-quebecs-economy-reduce-oil-consumption

And still not a murmur on details for the 'Ontario Line'. Perhaps the "new tech" is using an 'invisibility cloak'?

Instead of betting the farm on these, why not replace the O-Train Lint powertrains instead?
In the event, the German tests will tell all we need to know on the trains themselves, then the challenge is the support infrastructure, which Germany has surplus of, Canada next to none.
 
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ssiguy2

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The trains are proven as they are standard Coradia EMU trains, it's just the power source is different. Alstom are contracted out to run the trains/maintenance.
 

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