GO Transit Electrification | Metrolinx

[ssiguy2]

If Ford decides the costs of electrification are too high then it pretty much guarantees a hydrogen system with battery far behind and catenary dead last. Catenary is a good and reliable system but it also requires huge upfront infrastructure costs. Battery negates some of that by allowing the catenary system to be smaller and then run the trains on battery but even that would still cost a lot and be time consuming. Battery is more appropriate for systems that already have a core electrified system which Toronto has none of. After years of talking about electrified RER, the only thing electric run by GO are the lightbulbs.

Hydrogen basically just requires buying the trains themselves and putting in the hydrogen fueling stations which is no different than substations needed for catenary. Hydrogen would also be cheaper to run over the long term It is not as efficient as catenary but the electrical usage can be bought at cheaper non-peak times. It also doesn't require the upkeep of the catenary system of replacement, upkeep, and emergency repairs when storms hit which also makes it more reliable in severe weather.

Hydrogen also has 2 key political advantages over battery and/or catenary. First it would help develop an upcoming industry which Ontario's Hyrogenics is a TRUE world leader and Alstom trains are based upon it. Second, nearly the entire system could be up and running BEFORE the next provincial election and it would be a real suburban vote bonanza and not just in the 905. Yes the 905 would get vastly superior service but even inner city Torontonians would gladly welcome the cleaner air and blissful quiet which they don't enjoy today to say nothing of none of the visual pollution.

 

[dowlingm]

France has just announced yet another diesel to hydrogen line run by SNCF. The 19 km route on the Auxerre/Laroche will be exclusively hydrogen rail by 2022.

Would be great for Sarnia-London, especially if hydrogen production was done at Sarnia.

Le train à hydrogène a-t-il des chances d'arriver dans l'Yonne ?

Le premier train à hydrogène au monde a été inauguré lundi 17 septembre en Allemagne. Et il se trouve que l'on pourrait voir arriver ces trains écolos dans l'Yonne, précisément sur la ligne Auxerre-Saint-Gervais / Laroche-Migennes afin de remplacer les TER au diesel, plus polluants.

www.francebleu.fr

But we'll have to see how it scales up to a train that can hold 2000 people.

 

[dowlingm]

Hydrogen basically just requires buying the trains themselves and putting in the hydrogen fueling stations which is no different than substations needed for catenary. Hydrogen would also be cheaper to run over the long term It is not as efficient as catenary but the electrical usage can be bought at cheaper non-peak times. It also doesn't require the upkeep of the catenary system of replacement, upkeep, and emergency repairs when storms hit which also makes it more reliable in severe weather.

Hydrogen also has 2 key political advantages over battery and/or catenary. First it would help develop an upcoming industry which Ontario's Hyrogenics is a TRUE world leader and Alstom trains are based upon it. Second, nearly the entire system could be up and running BEFORE the next provincial election and it would be a real suburban vote bonanza and not just in the 905. Yes the 905 would get vastly superior service but even inner city Torontonians would gladly welcome the cleaner air and blissful quiet which they don't enjoy today to say nothing of none of the visual pollution.

You haven't mentioned the hydrogen source.

 

[ssiguy2]

Siemen's Desiro EMU trains are in their last production year as they are being replaced by the new Mireo EMU regional trains in 2020 Vancouver's Ballard are developing the hydrogen version which will be available in 2021

So much for the excuse that it is proprietary technology relying on one manufacturer. Of course that was a fake excuse anyway as China is developing it's own hydrogen trains and has had a hydrogen tram running since 2017

 

[ssiguy2]

You haven't mentioned the hydrogen source.

Sorry do you mean the electrical source or the news source. For the news source I simply Google hydrogen news and get several different reports from such resources as Railway Gazette, RailNow, Hydrogenics, progressive Rail, Hydrogen Europe, Siemens, and/or Alstom. I don't use fake sources and unless it is reported in one of these reputable sources, I don't print it.

 

[Allandale25]

I thought he already went over this a few months ago, and that he just repeated the same thing at the Town Hall. It is up to the bidders to choose what type of electrification technology to use. Also that the cabinet (politicians) were happy about the cost savings electrification would result in.

Correct. And he went into the mechanical details of how electrification works and the benefits last night.

 

[cplchanb]

If Ford decides the costs of electrification are too high then it pretty much guarantees a hydrogen system with battery far behind and catenary dead last. Catenary is a good and reliable system but it also requires huge upfront infrastructure costs. Battery negates some of that by allowing the catenary system to be smaller and then run the trains on battery but even that would still cost a lot and be time consuming. Battery is more appropriate for systems that already have a core electrified system which Toronto has none of. After years of talking about electrified RER, the only thing electric run by GO are the lightbulbs.

Hydrogen basically just requires buying the trains themselves and putting in the hydrogen fueling stations which is no different than substations needed for catenary. Hydrogen would also be cheaper to run over the long term It is not as efficient as catenary but the electrical usage can be bought at cheaper non-peak times. It also doesn't require the upkeep of the catenary system of replacement, upkeep, and emergency repairs when storms hit which also makes it more reliable in severe weather.

Hydrogen also has 2 key political advantages over battery and/or catenary. First it would help develop an upcoming industry which Ontario's Hyrogenics is a TRUE world leader and Alstom trains are based upon it. Second, nearly the entire system could be up and running BEFORE the next provincial election and it would be a real suburban vote bonanza and not just in the 905. Yes the 905 would get vastly superior service but even inner city Torontonians would gladly welcome the cleaner air and blissful quiet which they don't enjoy today to say nothing of none of the visual pollution.

a few things:
- your assessment on timelines is utopian. It will take the entire election just to design and tender out hydrail let alone have it in service. Please provide an example of a multi billion dollar project not from china that was built from scratch in less than 4 years
-I can guarantee the upfront cost of hydrail will be much more than catenary as this is still a very emergent technology. As others have commented, where are you going to source the hydrogen? wheres the infrastructure to produce and store? If not the rail network than for sure the hydrogen systems will be the major cost in this venture
-pantographs is a proven technology and is here to stay. has japan with its vast networks gone to hydrail yet and would it use it to replace their major lines?
- I have a feeling that this tech will wash over eventually like 3D tvs and VR and be a niche product.

 

[ssiguy2]

You make it sound like hydrail is some sort of revolutionary new train and it categorically is not. These Alstom and upcoming Siemen's Mireo trains are regional trains 101...they are about as ordinary as you can get They don't need special tracks or even special trains. While the RER trains were always either catenary EMU or DMU, now they can also offer hydrail as a 3rd alternative.

The large announcement in the UK by Eldersholt Rail to have a whole fleet of hydrogen trains plying it's several hundred km routes in the UK by 2022 are, in fact, NOT new vehicles. What they are doing is simply taking their currently Classic 321 DMUs and refurbishing them and reengineering them for hydrogen-electric propulsion. They are saving money and reducing their carbon footprint of having to buy new trains and getting rid of all emissions. They are working with Alstom for the conversion but they are not buying any Alstom trains.

Hydrogen has the advantages of being very easily expanded onto new or extended routes, is not susceptable to weather or overhead decay and {unlike battery trains} can run approx 100km at high speeds and not worry about power reduction as the new UK "Breeze" trains can be fully fueled in about 3 minutes.........…the same amount of time it takes to fill you car tank.

 

[crs1026]

^Even if the trains are now available (personally I would like to see a service that has run successfully for 3-5 years' before Ontario considers buying it) you skipped the whole issue about supply and storage. How many days' worth of Hydrogen would ML need to keep on hand? How big a facility is that? Where would we put it (them)? Where is the production facility going? Have you talked to the neighbours about that?

- Paul

 

[jje1000]

I would much rather prefer the initial wave of GO RER projects to be designed around electrification, mainly for the capacity and time-tested reliability- I think perhaps after that, hydrogen would be well-suited to enter the conversation for the remaining lines (even possible extensions) as it would have had some time to mature and develop some best practices.

Sort of like how TTC jumped the gun early with their hybrid electric buses some years ago, but are now returning to them as the technology has evolved further.

TTC going diesel again after hybrid bus glitch

The TTC is going back to buying diesel buses because the batteries on its newer hybrid diesel-electric models are proving too "hit and miss."

www.thestar.com

TTC's 'newest generation' hybrid electric bus expected on the road in 2 weeks | CBC News

The Toronto Transit Commission took ownership of its "newest generation" hybrid electric bus on Tuesday and Mayor John Tory was on hand to celebrate the moment.

www.cbc.ca

 

[cplchanb]

You make it sound like hydrail is some sort of revolutionary new train and it categorically is not. These Alstom and upcoming Siemen's Mireo trains are regional trains 101...they are about as ordinary as you can get They don't need special tracks or even special trains. While the RER trains were always either catenary EMU or DMU, now they can also offer hydrail as a 3rd alternative.

The large announcement in the UK by Eldersholt Rail to have a whole fleet of hydrogen trains plying it's several hundred km routes in the UK by 2022 are, in fact, NOT new vehicles. What they are doing is simply taking their currently Classic 321 DMUs and refurbishing them and reengineering them for hydrogen-electric propulsion. They are saving money and reducing their carbon footprint of having to buy new trains and getting rid of all emissions. They are working with Alstom for the conversion but they are not buying any Alstom trains.

Hydrogen has the advantages of being very easily expanded onto new or extended routes, is not susceptable to weather or overhead decay and {unlike battery trains} can run approx 100km at high speeds and not worry about power reduction as the new UK "Breeze" trains can be fully fueled in about 3 minutes.........…the same amount of time it takes to fill you car tank.

None of those trains are made for NA. A brand new design or a reworked train will be needed IF theres a market for it here. That alone will take years. We dont have the luxury of existing DMUs or EMUs to refit these systems to. I highly doubt they would
reengine an MP40 to hydro....

 

[smallspy]

I highly doubt they would reengine an MP40 to hydro....

Metrolinx sent back a perfectly good, almost-new engine to be completely rebuilt into a Frankensteinian one-off. I wouldn't put it past them to send a loco in to be converted to operate on hydrogen - or even overhead wire.

Dan

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

And hydrogen refilling definitely isn't equivalent to a mere electrical substation - bulk storage is an explosive hazard.

AoD

 

[ssiguy2]

^^ and storing and transporting diesel isn't an explosive hazard? I think the good people of Lac Megantic would beg to differ.

I know this whole project has gone out for request and the best bid regardless of the technology or even trains proposed and Metrolinx will base it's decision upon that but that is hypothetical. Metrolinx is at the beck and call of Queen's Park as both Wynne and Ford have clearly shown. Ford will make the final decision and he will do whatever he wants. One thing Ford has already proven in spades is his willingness to completely ignore recommendations and do what is most advantageous for him personally. This is why I think Ford will choose Hydrail.

Hydrail offers a plethora of political advantages over catenary or battery powered trains. First, it can built much faster due to far less infrastructure required and hence most of the system could be up and running BEFORE the next election. Second, It avoids the huge costs of upfront infrastructure which is of vital importance for a cost-cutting government. Third, it offers the opportunity and political brownie points of helping to kick start a hydrogen economy where Ontario technology is already at the forfront. Fourth, it allows suburbanites to get far superior service while also appeasing the crucial suburban Toronto voters by getting rid of the emissions and noise of diesel trains to say nothing of the catenary visual pollution. This will also help him "claim" he is serious about the environment and is making a decision that will result in zero emissions faster than Liberals.

This is all about politics kids and politically speaking, Hydrail offers benefits that catenary simply cannot compete with. Hydrail checks all the boxes and catenary absolutely none.

 

[cplchanb]

^^ and storing and transporting diesel isn't an explosive hazard? I think the good people of Lac Megantic would beg to differ.

I know this whole project has gone out for request and the best bid regardless of the technology or even trains proposed and Metrolinx will base it's decision upon that but that is hypothetical. Metrolinx is at the beck and call of Queen's Park as both Wynne and Ford have clearly shown. Ford will make the final decision and he will do whatever he wants. One thing Ford has already proven in spades is his willingness to completely ignore recommendations and do what is most advantageous for him personally. This is why I think Ford will choose Hydrail.

Hydrail offers a plethora of political advantages over catenary or battery powered trains. First, it can built much faster due to far less infrastructure required and hence most of the system could be up and running BEFORE the next election. Second, It avoids the huge costs of upfront infrastructure which is of vital importance for a cost-cutting government. Third, it offers the opportunity and political brownie points of helping to kick start a hydrogen economy where Ontario technology is already at the forfront. Fourth, it allows suburbanites to get far superior service while also appeasing the crucial suburban Toronto voters by getting rid of the emissions and noise of diesel trains to say nothing of the catenary visual pollution. This will also help him "claim" he is serious about the environment and is making a decision that will result in zero emissions faster than Liberals.

This is all about politics kids and politically speaking, Hydrail offers benefits that catenary simply cannot compete with. Hydrail checks all the boxes and catenary absolutely none.

as i have mentioned in a previous post, there are NO hydrail vehicles that are certified for NA service at this time and there is NO reference projects that we can use that is in scope of what you are trying to propose. Do we even have a storage facility that can hold that much hydrogen? Your timeline that everything can be done in 3 years is FALSE. Design and certification alone for a NA spec train will take years not to mention design, tender and construction of even the few infrastructure that you claim to require