GO and UP and Their Relevance in Toronto

[Reecemartin]

Hey,

So some great conversations were happening in the Crosstown thread that I would like to continue.

I think that GO IS becoming far more relevant in Toronto proper. The TTC co-fare contributes but, so do the TTC's woes, expanded service (I'd call it frequent on LSW, LSE, and UP), all day service on Barrie and Stouffville (and likely all week once station upgrades on Stouffville are done). I wanna make it clear the following is not me complaining about the TTC its just that GO offers a lot of niceties that don't really make sense for the TTC.

A bit more in depth:

Frequent Service

UP, LSE, and LSW trains all have you waiting less than 10 minutes on average if you show up at a station for most of the day. That's pretty decent, and given that many GO stations have sitting areas with plugs, etc. the wait really is not bad. The UP seems to have been the gateway drug to using GO more for a lot of people I have talked to.

TTC Woes

The GO has a lot of benefits over the TTC. You can virtually always get a seat. You can use your phone without being interrupted frequently, UP has Wifi and GO trains will probably be getting it too. Trains are not crowded and actually, have plugs and restrooms. There's also fewer service suspensions etc.


Going Forward

I can only see LSE LSW and UP becoming even more popular especially if and when electric service comes online for LS Line. UP, in particular, might even be constrained because of capacity (kind of good to see it so popular especially in the peak). The big change will be seeing services on Barrie and Stouffville furth expand, these lines both travel through heavily populated areas and have not had all day service for nearly as long as on the Lakeshore. However I see both inevitably getting to 30 minute service once current construction of Stouffville station upgrades is over (probably will see weekend service too). I also see usage being an snowball type thing so the more service thats added the faster things improve to 15 minutes etc.

Further the station upgrades all play in this direction too. All the new development in the Southcore by Union means that more and more people should be working within walking distance of the station. Union with the food court etc is an easy place to wait for a train. Station upgrades on other stations are also great as well just looking at whats going on on the Stouffville Line has me super excited because some of the stations feel like proper rapid transit.

 

[Neutrino]

When I worked in the west end and had commitments downtown after work, I always took the UP from Weston instead of Downsview. It was just so much faster. UP absolutely was my "gateway drug" to GO.

 

[MisterF]

I think the biggest factor in increasing GO's relevance to central Toronto is fare integration. Exhibition Station for example is right next to Liberty Village but it doesn't get used nearly as much as it should. Ridership would skyrocket if it cost the same as the TTC for the same distance. The rest of the RER upgrades are essential but fare integration will unlock its full potential.

 

[smallspy]

I think the biggest factor in increasing GO's relevance to central Toronto is fare integration. Exhibition Station for example is right next to Liberty Village but it doesn't get used nearly as much as it should. Ridership would skyrocket if it cost the same as the TTC for the same distance. The rest of the RER upgrades are essential but fare integration will unlock its full potential.

I think that the bigger issue specifically with Exhibition is that the connections are poor. It's a 3+ minute walk to the Ossington bus - thus very, very few people make that connection.

The same could be argued with many-to-most of the GO stations within Toronto. If the connections were more convenient, I suspect that people would be more inclined to connect from one service to the other. Where it is convenient - Kipling and Kennedy, to name two of the few where it is - people do use the connection quite regularly.

Dan

 

[nfitz]

I think that the bigger issue specifically with Exhibition is that the connections are poor. It's a 3+ minute walk to the Ossington bus - thus very, very few people make that connection.

Though it's a very short walk to the frequent Bathurst, Dufferin, and Harbourfront services, so at best that's a minor issue.

Hopefully the looping on the Ossington bus gets right to the station, once they build that new road, that goes right along the station.

That Ossington bus almost seems forgotten. I was always amazed at TFC games, that there are huge crowds at the GO station, at the streetcar loop, at Dufferin Gate where they shorten the Dufferin Bus (and 504 streetcar now) on game days. But if you walk up to catch the Ossington bus at Liberty - there isn't even half a bus load the busiest I've ever seen it - yeah I know there's a bottleneck in the GO tunnel, but meanwhile there were hundreds if not thousands of people walking up Atlantic.

 

[hw621]

That's what happens when the municipalities and the province work in silos.

 

[junctionist]

It's ridiculous that even with the major emphasis on transit expansion in the past 15 years, the most basic "wins" like GO/TTC fare integration haven't been achieved yet. GO Transit can, in some ways, be considered a premium service compared to the TTC with more comfortable and faster routes into the downtown core, but the fares should still be comparable (e.g. $3.50 vs $3.00 in the city of Toronto). Moreover, with Presto, you should have a free transfer to the TTC's services.

If that were the case, transit would be a viable option for a lot more trips by being inexpensive and quick. Seamless GO/TTC integration would provide more redundancy to the network when the subway has an emergency closure. Redundancy means people still get to their destinations on time and remain satisfied with transit. Metrolinx should make it happen.

 

[ssiguy2]

I think the biggest factor in increasing GO's relevance to central Toronto is fare integration. Exhibition Station for example is right next to Liberty Village but it doesn't get used nearly as much as it should. Ridership would skyrocket if it cost the same as the TTC for the same distance. The rest of the RER upgrades are essential but fare integration will unlock its full potential.

Exactly! There are many systems in the world that have suburban/RER/U-Bahn where ridership is higher than the Metro. This is particularly true of cities with small Metro systems like Toronto. They are fast and much cheaper to build due to taking advantage of current rail infrastructure. It all comes down to fares. If GO had the same fares & integration as the TTC ridership would double overnight and continue to soar. GO/RER could very easily overtake the subway in ridership. As it stands right now, when considering the billions already spent on RER and massive increase in frequency, the increase in ridership levels has been modest...……...all the service in the world means nothing if you still can't afford to take it.

There is also a equity and fairness issue. Is it 'fair that billions is being spent on a system that many can't use? Isn't that a two-tiered transit system akin to two-tiered healthcare where the lower income get passable service but if you are wealthy you get top notch? This is especially true for people that depend on transit the most who don't have a car so they have no options. It breeds a lot of animosity and resentment from people when they see billions spent on huge new stations, coaches, tracks, and bridges knowing that it won';t make a damn difference to them. The wealthy get great new service while they are still stuck sitting in the rain waiting for another packed bus to bypass them or hyperventilating on the subway while the wealthier get to relax in the nice comfy chairs watching the city go by.

 

[hw621]

^well as much as I support fare integration I just don't see how those forced to live in the 905 and pay the higher GO fare to commute to work because they cannot afford 416 real estate price the wealthy.

 

[smallspy]

Though it's a very short walk to the frequent Bathurst, Dufferin, and Harbourfront services, so at best that's a minor issue.

Hopefully the looping on the Ossington bus gets right to the station, once they build that new road, that goes right along the station.

That Ossington bus almost seems forgotten. I was always amazed at TFC games, that there are huge crowds at the GO station, at the streetcar loop, at Dufferin Gate where they shorten the Dufferin Bus (and 504 streetcar now) on game days. But if you walk up to catch the Ossington bus at Liberty - there isn't even half a bus load the busiest I've ever seen it - yeah I know there's a bottleneck in the GO tunnel, but meanwhile there were hundreds if not thousands of people walking up Atlantic.

Well, that depends on where you're going, doesn't it? If you want to go due north from the station Ossington would be in theory your best route.

And the Dufferin bus sees many periods where it isn't able to serve the Exhibition Grounds and thus the GO station, so that's another pain that riders need to deal with.

The current situation is nowhere close to ideal. I agree that hopefully they will change things once the new road gets built. But it just goes back to show how poorly GO has done over the years with improvements to station access.

Dan

 

[W. K. Lis]

The PRESTO machines should usable by both GO and UPX users, without having to confirm that you are using the correct machines. Still getting errors (full fare) on the machines, thinking I did use them correctly, but ended up not.

 

[nfitz]

Well, that depends on where you're going, doesn't it? If you want to go due north from the station Ossington would be in theory your best route.

And the Dufferin bus sees many periods where it isn't able to serve the Exhibition Grounds and thus the GO station, so that's another pain that riders need to deal with.

The current situation is nowhere close to ideal. I agree that hopefully they will change things once the new road gets built. But it just goes back to show how poorly GO has done over the years with improvements to station access.

All true, but I don't think that Exhibition station demands is going to change much once Ossington and Dufferin better connected.

If Metrolinx does complete the third tunnel at Exhibition station, and that road between Atlantic and Dufferin ever gets built, the connection to the Dufferin bus will significantly improve, become a 400-metre walk ... hmm, further than I thought actually. Perhaps Dufferin would better serve Exhibition GO from the north side (once that road is built) rather than the south side, which is often closed.

 

[Streety McCarface]

I think it's worth noting that GO serves a lot more purposes than what it's future RER capabilities will be. It also is starting to serve as an exurb commuter service. Maybe not to the extent that RER is having, but it's certainly changing travel patterns and, unfortunately, opening up the greenbelt to development. I think we have to be careful with new services on the Milton and Kitchener line (and this is despite me living in Waterloo), and proper zoning and enforcement of zoning practices need to be put into place to preserve these areas of the province.

This isn't a bad thing, it means we can open up the inner Kitchener and Cambridge corridors to rapid GO service that serve Guelph, KW, and Cambridge much faster than they do to this day. While double tracked, class 6+ track isn't along the corridor (yet), the corridor already exists, and providing that faster service to these outer areas will incentivize the development of the areas in which the stations serve. This can only be a good thing, as it will ultimately prevent suburban development from flourishing.

 

[Neutrino]

The area within walking distance of each 2WAD GO station should be zoned for high density mixed use.

 

[ssiguy2]

In rush hour there is absolutely no reason why anyone in Scar should be taking the Bloor line if going to Union/downtown, so why aren't they? In order to get downtown from Scar you HAVE to pass either Kennedy or Scar GO stations. In rush hour they are frequent and even if you have to wait 10 minutes for the train, you would still get downtown MUCH faster and more comfortably than the subway. Yet Kennedy remains a very busy transfer station and the ONLY reason why anyone would take Bloor/Yonge to get downtown is because they can't afford to take GO.

Frequency increases are of course a very good thing but just because the trains are more frequent doesn't mean they are more accessible. Your boss isn't going to give you a raise because the GO train comes by more frequently now. Your landlord isn't going to give you a cut on your rent so you can take have a more comfortable commute. Your bank isn't going to reduce your mortgage so you don't have to get up as early. Hydro isn't going to reduce your rates so you can spend more time with your family.

All GO in Toronto does right now is build resentment as the average traveler sees trains going by built with their tax dollars and yet is not a service optional for them. This is akin to the province using your tax dollars building a new school in your area to relieve the severe crowding at the local one only to find out that the school will be a private with inaccessible tuition fees.