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Gardiner Expressway Hybrid Design

muller877

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The problem with most of the Hybrid options I've seen from non-technical people is they assume the expressway can make a sharp bend at the bottom of the Don Valley and right along the edge of the railway. The reason the Gardiner swings so far south, next to the channel, is because that's how much room it needs to make the curve at 80kmph.

There are a number of potential solutions. One is to make the curve a lot slower. That means slowing traffic down somehow (maybe even a traffic light or roundabout). .
...or the simple solution of rumble strips. But that's way to cost effective for Toronto

Let me guess that they wills start the 50 zone at Jarvis and at Dundas. After all we need 2 km to make sure we are going slower! (which will make it more dangerous not less since it will be a ludicrous speed limit for 1.5 of the 2 km)
 

nfitz

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I don't get the issue. Ramps are often slower than the speed limit.

If you had two lanes at the speed limit, the capacity would be about 4,000 cars an hour. Which is about double the demand. So a speed restriction shouldn't impact flow much.
 

Tuscani01

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I dont get it either. As I have mentioned several times in this very thread, it wouldn't be the first or last ramp in the GTA with a lower speed limit. ALL RAMPS HAVE LOWER SPEED LIMITS.

40-50km/hour is the normal ramp speed on most ramps from one highway to another in the Province. It's currently 60km/hour for the existing ramp from the Gardiner to the DVP anyway, and that speed sign doesn't come up until you are already on the ramp. The ramp from the DVP to the 401 is 40km/hour and I don't think anyone ever said the connection wouldn't be possible because *gasp* traffic would need to slow down significantly.

Where does this idea that you need 1km-2km of roadway to slow the speed down come from? It certainly doesn't come from reality.
 
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Michael62

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What is the radius for the east bound on-ramp from southbound 427 to Gardiner Expressway? It seems tight to me but still functional at 60kph
 

Tuscani01

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What is the radius for the east bound on-ramp from southbound 427 to Gardiner Expressway? It seems tight to me but still functional at 60kph
It's not even that tight in terms of ramps. I usually drive about 110 on it without any issues. Some of the DVP to 401 ramps are might tighter, as is the 401 to 400 ramp.
 

nfitz

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Different parcels are owned by different provincial and city agencies. But it's almost all public. If you could point to a particular lot by PIN.
 

ssiguy2

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I'm not interested in a particular parcel but rather the general ownership of the land.

The reason I asked is that is that this would make this corridor financially doable for a tunneled or ditched highway. Not only, if ditched, could buildings be built over it and used as a tax revenue source but also because that would free up the current Gardiner lands. The Gardiner occupies some very premium land that could be sold at a tidy fortune to also offset the price of a under grade highway.

This would not only improve the Waterfront by getting rid of the section of elevated road up against the lake but would also be a hell of a lot easier and faster to build. The Gardiner is going to be a very time consuming repair job and will play havoc with downtown traffic. The new highway could be built as the current one remains functioning and then when the new one opens then the Gardiner could be torn down much faster.
 

howl

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So it looks like the existing ramp from the southbound DVP to the westbound Gardiner has a radius of about 300m which, depending on the "superelevation" (e.g. banking) puts the design speed around 80 or 90kmph. The orange warning signs leading to the ramp say 60kmph as the suggested speed, however if people fail to slow down for the corner they should be able to still make the corner at speed in dry conditions.

By my estimate you could start a curve right under the railway line and line up with the existing Gardiner west of Cherry (e.g. no swing to the channel) with a 150m radius curve. That results in a design speed of 60kmph so the operating speed would need to be around 40kmph. That would require people to slow down and if someone missed the warning signs they would likely crash.
 

Tuscani01

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By my estimate you could start a curve right under the railway line and line up with the existing Gardiner west of Cherry (e.g. no swing to the channel) with a 150m radius curve. That results in a design speed of 60kmph so the operating speed would need to be around 40kmph. That would require people to slow down and if someone missed the warning signs they would likely crash.
Which wouldn't be anything new in the GTA. There are already ramps with posted speeds of 40km scattered around the region, and we don't see frequent crashes on any of them.
 

junctionist

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We can't keep catering to drivers' smallest conveniences if we want a great downtown and livable city. Putting an expressway at the Keating Channel flies in the face of waterfront revitalization. If drivers want the grade-separated connection, they should accept the more sharply curved ramp between the DVP and Gardiner. They'll get their grade-separated expressway connection, and the waterfront will get attractive parkland for a better city.
 

44 North

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Again, who owns the land?
I was skimming through images I had for another reason, but came across this screenshot I saved. Not sure if it answers your question, and I'm not even sure where it came from, but it does a good job of IDing property ownership in this area.

Edit: here's a better version from TPLC's site:

 
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