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Gardiner Expressway Hybrid Design

drum118

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At the meeting I was at on Wednesday, the City stated that they have heard that Transit needs to be push as the #1 mode of transportation and pushing parking standards down to 20% at best on the Waterfront.

I have been pushing parking standards from 0-25% as our infrastructure can't support another 1.5 million cars by 2040 as well depleting our natural resources.

As someone who has worked with Waterfront Toronto on all transit projects as well a number of urban protects since 2004, what was plan for the Waterfront doesn't come close to what taking place to the point density is now ten times more than plan and still climbing. Transit is no where seen compare to what plan and approved by 2008/10 since all levels are not investing in it, as well TTC is still old school thinking and visions.

We are seeing the shifting of the Financial District to the south since the people are living there that work in the district. A great number don't own cars at all.
 

TransitBart

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At the meeting I was at on Wednesday, the City stated that they have heard that Transit needs to be push as the #1 mode of transportation and pushing parking standards down to 20% at best on the Waterfront.

I have been pushing parking standards from 0-25% as our infrastructure can't support another 1.5 million cars by 2040 as well depleting our natural resources.

As someone who has worked with Waterfront Toronto on all transit projects as well a number of urban protects since 2004, what was plan for the Waterfront doesn't come close to what taking place to the point density is now ten times more than plan and still climbing. Transit is no where seen compare to what plan and approved by 2008/10 since all levels are not investing in it, as well TTC is still old school thinking and visions.

We are seeing the shifting of the Financial District to the south since the people are living there that work in the district. A great number don't own cars at all.
There should be.a special place in hell reserved for all the Toronto City councillors who kept kicking the east waterfront LRT down the road. I don’t accept the arguments wining about money. They were paid to make the decisions. Every ward got a few bits and pieces. Each councillor was happy. They fulfilled their local neighbourhood mandate. And they failed the city as a whole.

Il carnevale è finito. (The carnival is over.) City Hall do your job.
 
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robmausser

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There should be.a special place in hell reserved for all the Toronto City councillors who kept kicking the east waterfront LRT down the road. I don’t accept the arguments wining about money. They were paid to make the decisions. Every ward got a few bits and pieces. Each councillor was happy. They fulfilled their local neighbourhood mandate. And they failed the city as a whole.

Il carnevale è finito. (The carnival is over.) City Hall do your job.
There should be.a special place in hell reserved for all the Toronto City councillors who kept kicking the east waterfront LRT down the road. I don’t accept the arguments wining about money. They were paid to make the decisions. Every ward got a few bits and pieces. Each councillor was happy. They fulfilled their local neighbourhood mandate. And they failed the city as a whole.

Il carnevale è finito. (The carnival is over.) City Hall do your job.
As per the agreement with the province, (and by agreement I mean forced hand, cities dont have a say in Provincial policy) the city is no longer allowed to have its own transit projects outside of the province, it must get approval from the province.
 

Max Sterling

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I've always wondered with the ramp connecting the DVP to the Gardiner, why couldn't they make it go over the railway tracks instead? Make it more compact and go over land that is already utilized and perhaps free up more land for other things. Seems like it would make more sense to do that than what they ultimately chose to do.
 

BurlOak

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I've always wondered with the ramp connecting the DVP to the Gardiner, why couldn't they make it go over the railway tracks instead? Make it more compact and go over land that is already utilized and perhaps free up more land for other things. Seems like it would make more sense to do that than what they ultimately chose to do.
Your travelling level along DVP, and then have to climb to get over the rail tracks.
First off, it takes about 160m to switch from level to 4% grade (highest recommended for freeway) . (Based on assuming K=40, corresponding to 90 design speed, and 80 posted). The grade varies from 0 to 4% over this length, so essentially you can do the math that the first 80m has flat grade, and next 80m has 4%.

Next, you have to clear the railway tracks. The highway clearance is 4.5m. The beam structure of the bridge is 1.5m to 2.0m thick. The railway clearance is 7.2m, The ramp structure for the new DVP to Gardiner ramp would be at least 2.0m (the spans would be much larger than what the railway bridge has). Thus, the new highway ramp would have to rise ~15.5m to clear the tracks.

Thus, to clear this, you need about 470m (15.5 / 4% + 80m)

There is only about 380m between Eastern and the RR.

If clearing a roadway bridge, the clearance is 5.0m instead of 7.2m, so the length needed to clear this is a touch less (420m), so it is theoretically possible if you start elevation much earlier and go over top of Gerrard, Dundas, Queen, Eastern and the Railway.
 

Max Sterling

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If clearing a roadway bridge, the clearance is 5.0m instead of 7.2m, so the length needed to clear this is a touch less (420m), so it is theoretically possible if you start elevation much earlier and go over top of Gerrard, Dundas, Queen, Eastern and the Railway.
So if its possible why not do it? Seems like that would be the best solution where you're building the ramp over land that's already being used and therefore you're taking up less space that could be used for other things. Unless the cost is significantly higher, it seems like that would be the best place to put the ramp as wasn't one of the complaints was that the space could be better used for residential/commercial/recreational use or something?

Also with the tear the it down, build a grand boulevard option, did it involve having highway traffic interacting with pedestrians and cyclists or were they completely separated because if they were going to be sharing the same space then there's no way that that wouldn't cause massive traffic headaches the same way that you currently see in the rest of the downtown core with cars and pedestrians trying to get where they're going.

Still never understood why they don't turn all downtown intersections into scramble ones where cars and pedestrians are separated and aren't in each other's way so that traffic can flow abit better and pedestrians are protected more.
 

smallspy

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It's not possible. That's why they haven't done it.

As per Burloak's calculations, there needs to be 470m of distance to climb up to a high enough height to clear the tracks. There's only 380m.

The better question would be - for what benefit? It would almost certainly involve a closure of many months to do it, as there is no where to build an alternate alignment.

Dan
 

BurlOak

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I didn't mention it, because I thought it was obvious.
The current Hybrid plan is about 850m length from Cherry to DVP.
Going over the railway, means starting north of Gerrard, which would be a 2.7km long elevated roadway.

The estimate for the current hybrid plan is ~$400M. Extrapolating, the cost of going over the railway would be $1.3B.
Is it worth spending an additional $900M?
 

ShonTron

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While out running errands yesterday, I mounted a GoPro camera to the dash.

I posted a video of the drive from Royal York Road to the DVP here:

 

DSC

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The Gardiner Expressway's westbound Sherbourne/Jarvis off-ramp will reopen on Sunday, April 19, at 12:01 a.m. The off-ramp, closed since October 2019, was replaced as part of Gardiner Expressway Strategic Rehabilitation Plan.

On Saturday, April 18, beginning at 12:01 a.m., crews will work to readjust construction staging to prepare for the reopening of the westbound off-ramp to Lower Sherbourne/Lower Jarvis Streets and the simultaneous closure of the westbound off-ramp to Yonge-Bay-York Streets.

During this time, two lanes will be closed on the southbound Don Valley Parkway (DVP) and westbound Gardiner Expressway starting from just south of the Richmond Street East exit on the DVP to the Jarvis Street on-ramp on the Gardiner Expressway.

On Saturday, April 18, to ensure a safe transition of the construction staging:

• both westbound off-ramps (Lower Sherbourne/Jarvis and Yonge-Bay-York) will be fully closed

• two lanes will be closed on the southbound Don Valley Parkway (DVP) and westbound Gardiner Expressway starting from just south of the Richmond Street East exit on the DVP to the Jarvis Street on-ramp on the Gardiner Expressway

• the on-ramp to the westbound Gardiner Expressway from Lake Shore Boulevard East near Logan Avenue will be closed

• the westbound Jarvis Street on-ramp will be the first opportunity for traffic on Lake Shore Boulevard East to access the westbound Gardiner Expressway

Work taking place on and near the Yonge-Bay-York off-ramp includes the replacement of the concrete deck and steel girders of the westbound expressway lanes near the ramp. The ramp is expected to be closed until late summer 2020 when construction will move to the final phase for the replacement of the southern half (eastbound lanes) of the expressway deck.
 

Northern Light

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Is it too late for the city to decide to do something different?
Short answer is no.

Less short answer is that there are some sunk costs on pursuing the existing approved vision; but a lot less than construction would entail.
 
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Amare

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The alternate that's in Tory's mind is probably putting it in the city's never ending list of "Approved and Not Funded" project list, a list that he should be shamed of. The one good thing that might come out from all of this, is that its going to force his hand to find new revenue tools for the city, he really has no choice. Unless he wants to hack and slash away and kiss his job goodbye.
 

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