G&M:Surplus Government Lands (Lazy Lands)

[rdaner]

Excellent article and maps listing Federally owned surplus lands that could be used for housing. This could become a thread for all government/school board land in the GTHA.

Could Canada’s underused public land be the key to solving the housing crisis?

Ottawa wants affordable housing on ‘every possible piece’ of federal land. So how much is out there? A Globe analysis found enough to house 750,000 people

www.theglobeandmail.com

 

[Northern Light]

Excellent article and maps listing Federally owned surplus lands that could be used for housing. This could become a thread for all government/school board land in the GTHA.

Could Canada’s underused public land be the key to solving the housing crisis?

Ottawa wants affordable housing on ‘every possible piece’ of federal land. So how much is out there? A Globe analysis found enough to house 750,000 people

www.theglobeandmail.com

Perhaps you could extract a few more of the Toronto-specific sites you found to be of interest.

***

Of the two you highlighted above.

One is the Canada Post facility on Lakeshore East.

To my understanding this site is now under utilized, but I'm not sure how much of that site's function remains and would need to be relocated.

Being directly across from the sewage plant may be an inhibitor to development, but maybe not.

Site is in the range of 9ha /23 acres

Limitations: Site is currently considered employment lands which it borders on both sides. I'm sure the City would be keen to see residential here.

Conversion to residential here, given the site size would demand new streets, probably 4 of them, 2, N-S and 2 E-W, but at minimum one of each.

Your height precedent would be the TAS proposal across Eastern at 12s. If this site went residential, it would obviously support many tall buildings. (potentially)

*****

Danforth Court is curious, I identify that as a group of low rise (3s) apartment buildings, which appear to be private, located between Main and Woodbine along Danforth.

Based on currently approved densities in the area, it seems unlikely to me that this land could be redeveloped cost effectively (you would have to replace the existing units); even if you went taller, say, 12-14s.......

I'm not sure I could make those numbers work, maybe.

Precedent is a brand new condo immediately adjacent at 10s, separation distances would play here.

The site is decent sized and has a laneway buffer to the south.

It runs something like ~36,000ft2

Streetview:

 

[rdaner]

Perhaps you could extract a few more of the Toronto-specific sites you found to be of interest.

***

Of the two you highlighted above.

One is the Canada Post facility on Lakeshore East.

To my understanding this site is now under utilized, but I'm not sure how much of that site's function remains and would need to be relocated.

Being directly across from the sewage plant may be an inhibitor to development, but maybe not.

Site is in the range of 9ha /23 acres

View attachment 568880

Limitations: Site is currently considered employment lands which it borders on both sides. I'm sure the City would be keen to see residential here.

Conversion to residential here, given the site size would demand new streets, probably 4 of them, 2, N-S and 2 E-W, but at minimum one of each.

Your height precedent would be the TAS proposal across Eastern at 12s. If this site went residential, it would obviously support many tall buildings. (potentially)

*****

Danforth Court is curious, I identify that as a group of low rise (3s) apartment buildings, which appear to be private, located between Main and Woodbine along Danforth.

Based on currently approved densities in the area, it seems unlikely to me that this land could be redeveloped cost effectively (you would have to replace the existing units); even if you went taller, say, 12-14s.......

I'm not sure I could make those numbers work, maybe.

Precedent is a brand new condo immediately adjacent at 10s, separation distances would play here.

The site is decent sized and has a laneway buffer to the south.

It runs something like ~36,000ft2

View attachment 568878

Streetview:

View attachment 568879

Thorough as always. Just one little thought: I wonder if the location of the Canada Post parcel along Lakeshore might lend itself to comparisons to other recent proposals along Lakeshore further west that are much more ambitious?

 

[Jonny5]

One is the Canada Post facility on Lakeshore East.

To my understanding this site is now under utilized, but I'm not sure how much of that site's function remains and would need to be relocated.

Being directly across from the sewage plant may be an inhibitor to development, but maybe not.

Rorschach Brewing's pub is right next door to there. I went with a group a few years ago and definitely confirm the odour can be quite pungent at times. We gave up our outdoor seats for the inside even though it was a lovely day to be on a patio. I could definitely see that being an impact on property values, though people have to live somewhere so maybe you can get used to it.

 

[Northern Light]

Thorough as always. Just one little thought: I wonder if the location of the Canada Post parcel along Lakeshore might lend itself to comparisons to other recent proposals along Lakeshore further west that are much more ambitious?

Anything is possible. But beyond the limitations I've described, a big problem w/this site is lack of transit/higher-order transit.

You've got the Queen streetcar to the north, but that's it.

The Ontario Line won't be particularly close.

Right now, Eastern Avenue doesn't even have bus service.

You could extend the WELRT out that way, eventually........but that's a long ways off, and not a particularly efficient route to get downtown.

 

[rdaner]

This one caught my eye as very doable. Adjacent to Yonge Street and mass transit as well as on a route that is rapidly developing further west. The central heritage structure could serve as an organizing building to mass density around. Reminds me of what Keesmat has done at Turnberry.

 

[Northern Light]

This one caught my eye as very doable. Adjacent to Yonge Street and mass transit as well as on a route that is rapidly developing further west. The central heritage structure could serve as an organizing building to mass density around. Reminds me of what Keesmat has done at Turnberry.View attachment 568888View attachment 568891View attachment 568892View attachment 568893View attachment 568894

Perhaps @kEiThZ could comment on current use of the site and its desirability for retention.

 

[rdaner]

Perhaps @kEiThZ could comment on current use of the site and its desirability for retention.

Other relevant questions would be is the entire site needed to maintain efficient operation? What are the options for housing for military personnel? Does leasing the site versus sale change the calculus?

 

[rdaner]

Here’s another interesting one: Brampton Armoury. Looks like it is in central Brampton and would make an interesting venue of some sort. There are similar heritage armouries in Hamilton and Stratford. But I can understand the MoD not wanting to give it up so why not a multi-use approach? For example lease parking lot for housing, military has use of hall for ceremonial purposes and community/post-secondary uses get remainder.

I am sure that Algoma/Ryerson would be interested!

 

[kEiThZ]

Perhaps @kEiThZ could comment on current use of the site and its desirability for retention.

Fat chance. It's one of the most prestigious military sites in Canada. And it's the location where all of Canada's senior officers, generals and some senior public servants are educated. It's also place where we bring in foreign officers from around the world and expose them to Canada. That location is considered vital. Not to mention the historical value of the site.

I do know developers have lobbied several governments to sell it for decades. Maybe a future government might reconsider the values involved. But there's no better location for the type of education and training involved and any equivalent location would be unaffordable today. Sending foreign officers and public servants to study in Kingston just doesn't have the same effect or cachet.

 

[kEiThZ]

Other relevant questions would be is the entire site needed to maintain efficient operation?

Yes. Given the rank level and importance of the personnel trained and educated there, especially the foreigners, security is primordial. There is no way randoms are being allowed on campus.

What are the options for housing for military personnel?

There is a barracks on campus for unaccompanied personnel. Those with families rent (usually) or buy (rarely) in town for the year they are posted to staff college.

Does leasing the site versus sale change the calculus?

Makes no difference. This site is unlikely to be the list. If it is, it's because the government has decided to move the College entirely.

 

[kEiThZ]

Here’s another interesting one: Brampton Armoury. Looks like it is in central Brampton and would make an interesting venue of some sort. There are similar heritage armouries in Hamilton and Stratford. But I can understand the MoD not wanting to give it up so why not a multi-use approach? For example lease parking lot for housing, military has use of hall for ceremonial purposes and community/post-secondary uses get remainder.

I know this is difficult to understand in a country like Canada where everything military is seen as optional or irrelevant, but military facilities are working facilities. Aside from using the parking lot to store and maintain military vehicles, it's kinda hard to attract reservists when we insist that they have to pay for parking in the neighbourhood and walk blocks, while we pay them $130 for a parade night.

Anyways, we'll have to see what the government says. These sites have value for housing. But they also have substantial military value. And giving them up (even partially) contradicts other goals of improving defence capacity.

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

Releasing land that would be barely make a blip when the real problem here is fiscal and policy issues that underlined the current crisis.

AoD

 

[rdaner]

Thanks for the response! Here is a GM article about the biggest component of likely conversions: office conversions.

Nearly half of the federal government’s office space could be converted to housing, expert firm says

A lot of the space the federal government owns and leases is in buildings constructed in the 1960s and 1970s, which generally have critical features that help make an office-to-residential conversion possible

www.theglobeandmail.com

 

[rdaner]

Anything is possible. But beyond the limitations I've described, a big problem w/this site is lack of transit/higher-order transit.

You've got the Queen streetcar to the north, but that's it.

The Ontario Line won't be particularly close.

Right now, Eastern Avenue doesn't even have bus service.

You could extend the WELRT out that way, eventually........but that's a long ways off, and not a particularly efficient route to get downtown.

Valid points however I have seen proposals where not being adjacent to higher-order transit doesn’t preclude ambitious density.