First Time Buyer - need some input.

[fencejack]

Hi all,

I am looking to purchase a condo in Toronto sometime this year and I'm debating whether to get a 1 bedroom or a 1 bedroom plus den.

A 1 bedroom is ~$20,000 less than a 1+den and I would also save on monthly fees such property tax, condo fees etc. I guess what I'm getting to is that a 1 bedroom will be much cheaper than a 1 + den (atleast ones with comparable finished etc.). The reason why I would like a 1 + den is: 1) a slightly bigger condo is always great. 2) if i have friends or family that plan to move to Toronto I could rent out the den temporarily for some extra money. 3) I assume the resale of 1+den would be better than a 1 bed (since you can use a den as a second bedroom).

Anyone else been in this situation? Any input is appreciated.

 

[taal]

Hi all,

I am looking to purchase a condo in Toronto sometime this year and I'm debating whether to get a 1 bedroom or a 1 bedroom plus den.

A 1 bedroom is ~$20,000 less than a 1+den and I would also save on monthly fees such property tax, condo fees etc. I guess what I'm getting to is that a 1 bedroom will be much cheaper than a 1 + den (atleast ones with comparable finished etc.). The reason why I would like a 1 + den is: 1) a slightly bigger condo is always great. 2) if i have friends or family that plan to move to Toronto I could rent out the den temporarily for some extra money. 3) I assume the resale of 1+den would be better than a 1 bed (since you can use a den as a second bedroom).

Anyone else been in this situation? Any input is appreciated.

The only comment I'll make is you really need to check what exactly a den is in the unit your looking at.

For example - to be consider a bedroom by law it must have a window. In other words, some dens are just as large as bedrooms but do not have a window. On the other hand some dens are as small as closets ... look around.

 

[fieras]

Many dens I've seen are hardly big enough for a kitchen table.

Check some of the older buildings, they tend to be bigger for less price. The newer buildings seem to have closet-sized units

 

[realtycoon]

For example - to be consider a bedroom by law it must have a window. .

So how do some developers get away with floorplans where there are internal bedrooms with no windows??? (That are actually marketed/advertised as Bedrooms)

 

[taal]

So how do some developers get away with floorplans where there are internal bedrooms with no windows??? (That are actually marketed/advertised as Bedrooms)

According to my real estate agent it's illegal! But I'm not sure

 

[fencejack]

Regarding the den, I would plan to get something big enough to at least put a small bed for temporary stay. I don't plan to market it as a two bedroom. I'm considering it for the convenience and possibility of some extra income if a friend or family wishes to live with me for a short period of time.

The point about the window is quite interesting. I actually found a 1 bedroom in liberty village where the bedroom doesn't really have a window to any outside viewing, rather a window from the bedroom to the living area. I was wondering why they had that there but I guess to be considered a 'bedroom' any window will do.

I recently inquired about london on the esplanade condos. One bedroom units at approximately 560 sqft with parking would come to about $355,000. Is it me or is this ridiculously high for a small one bedroom like that (especially with how the market is). Maybe I'm not familiar with the area and thats what people are actually paying for them. After negotiation, what would be a realistic price for something like the above? I assume there would be a lot of 'promotions' and what not nowadays.

Thanks for the input so far. I'm wondering if getting a (sizable) den is worth the extra money? Resale vs 1 bedroom? Appreciation vs 1 bedroom? etc.

If anyone even has a link to data where sales for 1 bed and 1 bed+den are separated for comparison would be great. I can't seem to find such a list.

 

[Josef]

In my humble opinion, I don't think a den is worth the cost. Have you seen Park Lake Residences at all? Pretty decent prices.

http://www.pembertongroup.com/?core=all_communities&area=toronto&location=park_lake

 

[fieras]

I recently inquired about london on the esplanade condos. One bedroom units at approximately 560 sqft with parking would come to about $355,000. Is it me or is this ridiculously high for a small one bedroom like that (especially with how the market is). Maybe I'm not familiar with the area and thats what people are actually paying for them. After negotiation, what would be a realistic price for something like the above? I assume there would be a lot of 'promotions' and what not nowadays.

Yikes! That's over 600$ a sq foot... In this market, I'd lean on an older resale unit, you can find in the city from 300$ sq/foot and up. Personally, I wouldn't pay over 220K$ for something 560 sq foot, that's like a university flat. I don't believe in paying a premium just coz it's new

 

[simuls]

Paying 220k for a 560 ft condo in that area is a pipe dream (you could find that in Scarborough, Etobicoke or North York maybe), but paying 355k is also ridiculous and reflects 2007 insanity prices - god help the people who payed that for London on the Esplanade as they won't see those prices for another 6-8 years.

That being said, if you really like that buidling then remember that everything is negotiable - especially right now, and I would expect that somewhere in the 250-280k range sounds reasonable for that size in a bldg built within the last 3-5 years.

 

[Josef]

Paying 220k for a 560 ft condo in that area is a pipe dream (you could find that in Scarborough, Etobicoke or North York maybe), but paying 355k is also ridiculous and reflects 2007 insanity prices - god help the people who payed that for London on the Esplanade as they won't see those prices for another 6-8 years.

Park Lake has condos with 575 SF starting from 187,300. You can't go wrong.

 

[rbt]

According to my real estate agent it's illegal! But I'm not sure

There are minimum natural light levels required which can be calculated.

A common technique is to use frosted glass in the bedroom door which faces an external wall. That worked well enough when prices were increasing because really, what buyer would walk away from occupancy and ask for their deposit back when they could sell it instead?

There are a couple of buildings being built which have been calculated to have inadequate light levels (based on floorplan diagrams). Might give buyers an easy way to get their deposit back.

 

[cdr108]

There are minimum natural light levels required which can be calculated.

A common technique is to use frosted glass in the bedroom door which faces an external wall. That worked well enough when prices were increasing because really, what buyer would walk away from occupancy and ask for their deposit back when they could sell it instead?

There are a couple of buildings being built which have been calculated to have inadequate light levels (based on floorplan diagrams). Might give buyers an easy way to get their deposit back.

Interesting info .. what is the calculation, required light levels?

 

[taal]

Regarding the den, I would plan to get something big enough to at least put a small bed for temporary stay. I don't plan to market it as a two bedroom. I'm considering it for the convenience and possibility of some extra income if a friend or family wishes to live with me for a short period of time.

The point about the window is quite interesting. I actually found a 1 bedroom in liberty village where the bedroom doesn't really have a window to any outside viewing, rather a window from the bedroom to the living area. I was wondering why they had that there but I guess to be considered a 'bedroom' any window will do.

I recently inquired about london on the esplanade condos. One bedroom units at approximately 560 sqft with parking would come to about $355,000. Is it me or is this ridiculously high for a small one bedroom like that (especially with how the market is). Maybe I'm not familiar with the area and thats what people are actually paying for them. After negotiation, what would be a realistic price for something like the above? I assume there would be a lot of 'promotions' and what not nowadays.

Thanks for the input so far. I'm wondering if getting a (sizable) den is worth the extra money? Resale vs 1 bedroom? Appreciation vs 1 bedroom? etc.

If anyone even has a link to data where sales for 1 bed and 1 bed+den are separated for comparison would be great. I can't seem to find such a list.

Wow crazy ... well just to give you an idea I just spent the following:
$340,000 at Y&E for roughly 850square feet, parking and locker.

How can they charge that much for such a little space??

Wait, and buy it from an investor in the property.

 

[cdr108]

I recently inquired about london on the esplanade condos. One bedroom units at approximately 560 sqft with parking would come to about $355,000. Is it me or is this ridiculously high for a small one bedroom like that (especially with how the market is). Maybe I'm not familiar with the area and thats what people are actually paying for them. After negotiation, what would be a realistic price for something like the above? I assume there would be a lot of 'promotions' and what not nowadays.

That's crazy ... did they mean $255K.
LOTE are not worth that much ... maybe they think since you're new to TO you don't know better.

 

[AKS]

If they're charging $600/sq ft, I would recommend waiting until the building is registered first before considering to buy. If you're already paying $600/sq ft (over priced in this market), you also have to pay the occupancy fee as well, which will kill you especially if they don't close for months to a year.