Toronto Eglinton Line 5 Crosstown West Extension | ?m | ?s | Metrolinx

[allengeorge]

And, IIRC, Metrolinx is now non-committal on whether they’ll actually do the public space improvements promised as part of the Davenport work. There was a very vague response from Ms. Mulroney saying that the priority was infrastructure improvements.

 

[syn]

You're looking at this with a very closed-minded approach. While I could argue that TYSSE could've easily been built in a much cheaper fashion, to say that a full capacity subway to Vaughan wasn't justified isn't exactly correct. People here seem to not understand that one of the things that hurt rapid transit projects is when there is a need to do pointless transfers and mode changes. One of the worst examples of this was the Sheppard East LRT, where if you were travelling from Scarborough to North York, you would have to make a transfer onto the Sheppard Line, just because you wanted to spend a lot less money on an extension. If you needed to get to the Yonge Line, you would have to transfer twice for seemingly no reason. The same logic can be applied to TYSSE. Sure you could've found a much cheaper technology to build the extension, but all that means is if you want to get to someplace in Toronto (not necessarily just downtown), you'd have to ride the viva orange to VMC, then take this TYSSE line down to Sheppard West, and from there ride the University line to wherever. This is what kills rider enthusiasm. When you have to constantly leave the train to make connections, you're further discouraging the use of rapid transit, and are pushing people to take the car places. So what if the immediate density of TYSSE doesn't justify a full heavy rail subway? Not only will the subway help push new developments (which is happening tenfold since unlike the Sheppard Line, Vaughan is really pushing for a large amount of densification around the subway extension), but if it can be used to funnel riders directly into Toronto through Viva Rapidway connections as well as park and riders from Highway 407, in that sense its entirely justified. The same exact thing could be said about SSE. Why should the residents of Scarborough have to deal with a pointless (and rather long) transfer at Kennedy, instead of having a train service that runs directly through Kennedy? By offering more direct services to destinations, you're increasing transit accessibility tenfold. The less you have to leave the train to get to another, the better. A good example of proper design can be found in Paris where when designing the metro, they set a rule to have every destination be accessible from anywhere with 2 or fewer transfers.Having random transfers to different modes hurts this philosophy.

Am I being close-minded? That's an interesting take to consider.

If I chose to renovate my kitchen while my foundation was crumbling, would that make me open-minded? Perhaps. I guess most people would consider it a bad move.

A brand new kitchen isn't of much use when your house collapses.

Right now we're fixated on building fancy kitchens and ignoring foundational issues. I'm not too concerned about the label. I'd like to see us take an approach that makes sense.

As for transfers, as a full time transit user they come with the territory. Transferring after a trip north from STC is no different for me than transferring at Bloor-Yonge after a trip from Yonge & Sheppard.

Why do Scarborough riders have more transfers to get downtown? Because they live in a poorly designed suburb that's fairly far away from the downtown core. For most riders in Scarborough, the SSE isn't going to change that.

Personally I find the RT ride fantastic, especially when you compare it to being stuck in traffic on a streetcar.

Paris seems like a rather poor example to me. It's quite clear why Paris has been able to build the system they have, with conditions that do not exist in Toronto.

In an ideal world, I'd be fine with subways everywhere. Unfortunately we have budgetary constraints to consider. That being the case, we should prioritize projects that are most needed and provide the best value given their purpose.

Spending billions of dollars to eliminate transfers for suburban riders does not make sense given the serious issues the system has to address right now.

 

[ARG1]

Am I being close-minded? That's an interesting take to consider.

If I chose to renovate my kitchen while my foundation was crumbling, would that make me open-minded? Perhaps. I guess most people would consider it a bad move.

A brand new kitchen isn't of much use when your house collapses.

Right now we're fixated on building fancy kitchens and ignoring foundational issues. I'm not too concerned about the label. I'd like to see us take an approach that makes sense.

As for transfers, as a full time transit user they come with the territory. Transferring after a trip north from STC is no different for me than transferring at Bloor-Yonge after a trip from Yonge & Sheppard.

Why do Scarborough riders have more transfers to get downtown? Because they live in a poorly designed suburb that's fairly far away from the downtown core. For most riders in Scarborough, the SSE isn't going to change that.

Personally I find the RT ride fantastic, especially when you compare it to being stuck in traffic on a streetcar.

Paris seems like a rather poor example to me. It's quite clear why Paris has been able to build the system they have, with conditions that do not exist in Toronto.

In an ideal world, I'd be fine with subways everywhere. Unfortunately we have budgetary constraints to consider. That being the case, we should prioritize projects that are most needed and provide the best value given their purpose.

Spending billions of dollars to eliminate transfers for suburban riders does not make sense given the serious issues the system has to address right now.

First, you're comparing apples to oranges. How on earth is a Kitchen on a crumbling foundation in any way relevant? We are building a Relief Line that is not worse at relieving Line 1, will serve more under served communities, and provide better access to important destinations than the DRL did. Furthermore, projects like SSE are less like fancy kitchens, and are more like bigger foundations to future transportation services. With a 3 stop extension along McCowan, we can then build Light rail lines along east-west corridors in Scarborough, better bus connections by funneling transit riders to a main arterial subway. We could theoretically reuse the current east west segment of the RT for use in an Ellesmere LRT, and build a mobility hub at Scarborough Centre station. If anything, projects like SSE and TYSSE are opportunities to build new foundations for more rapid transit options in these suburbs. Same thing with Yonge North. The terminus at Richmond Hill Centre is a natural hub, with 3 rapidway routes all converging to one central location, as well as a highway connection to help funnel people towards a main arterial. These aren't kitchen dressing projects, these are ground level foundations that can not only serve as a base work to launch future lighter transit modes, but also help support existing transit modes to improve transit in the GTA.

 

[Streety McCarface]

I agree with you but I honestly don't mind making an extra transfer if it means serving more areas with the SLRT and the EELRT in Scarborough. Though I actually do enjoy transfering lines more than other people.

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The big difference is that all LRT lines are likely to be no faster than the other alternatives presented (including the existing express buses). I can support an Eglinton East extension because it will exist to promote density (See the iON).

But the Sheppard East LRT or Malvern LRT? Just give me the bus, especially if you give me a bus lane.

Until the way we build light rail in the city of Toronto fundamentally changes, the only real reason to build LRT is to expand capacity on corridors that have little to no development potential (see Finch West), or to promote development on medium capacity corridors (See Eglinton East, Waterfront, and Jane).

 

[Rainforest]

Scarborough's design is very similar to Etobicoke and much of North York. There is no difference in design that can serve as an excuse for not extending the subway into Scarborough, when Etobicoke has a good access to two subway lines: Bloor and TYSSE, and North York is served by three subway lines.

SSE will not change the travel distances, but it will shorten the travel times. This is what matters for the majority of riders.

Opponents of SSE are purposely vague when it comes to the use of transit funds that they would possess if they had their way and managed to avert the SSE construction. One time they claim that the funds are needed for the core of the system / Relief Line, and that position has some merit. But then another time, they claim that they would spend all of those funds within Scarborough; thus leaving no extra funds for the core. Either one or the other can be true; not both.

 

[W. K. Lis]

Instead of improving the TTC and GO system fare discount transfers, the Conservatives go rid of it. Still waiting for their "new and improved" fare discount program.

If able to, riders would be able to use the GO system as an express routing and the TTC for local routing.

From link.

The other problem is that the physical connection between GO/UPX and TTC (maybe other than Union Station) leaves something to be desired. Dundas West TTC Station connecting with Bloor GO/UPX Station and Main TTC Station and Danforth GO Station come to mind.

See link.

At least, with the Mt. Dennis Station, there will be a better connection between the TTC and GO (allegedly).

 

[north-of-anything]

Since when did Etobicoke have good access to the TYSSE, which is on the other side of the Humber? Also, more importantly, can we not bring the Scarborough Centre Extension into this thread? Nobody's arguing against the route here, most people are questioning whether the built form is appropriate.

 

[Streety McCarface]

Since when did Etobicoke have good access to the TYSSE, which is on the other side of the Humber? Also, more importantly, can we not bring the Scarborough Centre Extension into this thread? Nobody's arguing against the route here, most people are questioning whether the built form is appropriate.

Riders on the 36 and 60 have had their bus commute cut more than in half. It makes a huge difference even if it's not directly in Etobicoke.

 

[EastYorkTTCFan]

Main TTC Station and Danforth GO Station come to mind.

See link.

er being a problem with pole getting from Danforth Go station to Main Street station. Does anyone have any statistics on how many people actually transfer from either of them?

 

[syn]

First, you're comparing apples to oranges. How on earth is a Kitchen on a crumbling foundation in any way relevant? We are building a Relief Line that is not worse at relieving Line 1, will serve more under served communities, and provide better access to important destinations than the DRL did. Furthermore, projects like SSE are less like fancy kitchens, and are more like bigger foundations to future transportation services.

I don't think I am.

The DRL/OL is critical, foundational infrastructure that's been delayed for many decades. Now we're choosing to value engineer it when it needs maximum capacity.

Meanwhile, we're spending extravagant sums of money to overbuild in the suburbs.

With a 3 stop extension along McCowan, we can then build Light rail lines along east-west corridors in Scarborough, better bus connections by funneling transit riders to a main arterial subway. We could theoretically reuse the current east west segment of the RT for use in an Ellesmere LRT, and build a mobility hub at Scarborough Centre station. If anything, projects like SSE and TYSSE are opportunities to build new foundations for more rapid transit options in these suburbs. Same thing with Yonge North. The terminus at Richmond Hill Centre is a natural hub, with 3 rapidway routes all converging to one central location, as well as a highway connection to help funnel people towards a main arterial. These aren't kitchen dressing projects, these are ground level foundations that can not only serve as a base work to launch future lighter transit modes, but also help support existing transit modes to improve transit in the GTA.

Scarborough already has an RT line almost no one uses unless they're heading to Kennedy or STC.

Sheppard already has a subway line almost no one uses unless they're heading to Sheppard or Don Mills.

Do we see a pattern here?

The projects you're outlining are not foundational. They aren't going to help ease the system gridlock, they'll make it worse.

I'm curious to know where the money will come from for all these new LRT lines to go along with the SSE.

What would help these areas is improved GO Transit.

As I mentioned, I'd be fine with all of these extensions if we had an unlimited budget and all our other priorities in check.

Unfortunately neither of those things is true.

 

[syn]

Since when did Etobicoke have good access to the TYSSE, which is on the other side of the Humber? Also, more importantly, can we not bring the Scarborough Centre Extension into this thread? Nobody's arguing against the route here, most people are questioning whether the built form is appropriate.

Good point. They don't.

For all the complaining about Scarborough, it's not as though Rexdale residents have it any easier.

 

[Rainforest]

Since when did Etobicoke have good access to the TYSSE, which is on the other side of the Humber? Also, more importantly, can we not bring the Scarborough Centre Extension into this thread? Nobody's arguing against the route here, most people are questioning whether the built form is appropriate.

TYSSE is on the other side of Humber, no walk-in acces obviously, but at least the riders of Finch West and Steeles West local routes are within 15-20 min (or less) ride from a TYSSE station. Unlike Scarbogouh where it can take > 30 min just to reach any subway station.

I am all for discussing Scarborough transit in the appropriate threads, but certain posters pretend that Scarborough built form is somehow much worse than in the rest of the city, and made that claim on this thread.

 

[Steve X]

Do I have to point out that Yonge street isn't right the middle of the city. Technically the center would be east of Bayview.

So the far east of Scarborough is the furthest away from the core and thus furthest away from the subway system (which is built more balance). There is 11.5km of rapid transit built in Scarborough vs 4.2km built in Etobicoke to offset the distance. Based on that fact, Etobicoke should go on full whining mode for the less loved part of the city. Building the full Eg West subway would only add 6.7km to Etobicoke for a total of 10.9km meaning if they done nothing, Scarborough would still have more (grade separated) rapid transit.

Scarborough would always be harder to get better transit as it's further away from everything. If the people living there are upset, they should quit bitching and move closer to the city. Getting a subway way out there won't make it closer to get downtown.

Norther Etobicoke is always difficult to access the subway hence a subway on Eg West would actually help alot. A lot of the riders head directly to Line 2 instead of eastwards. It's one of the "very few" good reason to have a subway instead of a surface LRT.

 

[innsertnamehere]

Do I have to point out that Yonge street isn't right the middle of the city. Technically the center would be east of Bayview.

So the far east of Scarborough is the furthest away from the core and thus furthest away from the subway system (which is built more balance). There is 11.5km of rapid transit built in Scarborough vs 4.2km built in Etobicoke to offset the distance. Based on that fact, Etobicoke should go on full whining mode for the less loved part of the city. Building the full Eg West subway would only add 6.7km to Etobicoke for a total of 10.9km meaning if they done nothing, Scarborough would still have more (grade separated) rapid transit.

Scarborough would always be harder to get better transit as it's further away from everything. If the people living there are upset, they should quit bitching and move closer to the city. Getting a subway way out there won't make it closer to get downtown.

Norther Etobicoke is always difficult to access the subway hence a subway on Eg West would actually help alot. A lot of the riders head directly to Line 2 instead of eastwards. It's one of the "very few" good reason to have a subway instead of a surface LRT.

Etobicoke is much smaller and narrower - so it can feel well served by subway even though it isn't really. Etobicoke is also pretty much split across the middle with a large industrial area, and most residents live south of it, within a few km of the Bloor-Danforth line. Probably 70-80% of people living in Etobicoke are within a 10 minute bus ride of the subway.

The residential areas in Northern Etobicoke are terribly served by rapid transit right now, though it's better than it used to be with the Spadina extension. The Finch LRT should help with that.

Scarborough comparatively has only a small area on the southern fringe of the borough that are within a quick bus ride of the subway. If you aren't south of Ellesmere or west of Markham Rd, you are pretty much in transit no-go zones unless you like really long bus rides.

Far eastern Scarborough is never going to be a transit utopia, but other than Malvern it's a pretty low density, high income area anyway that probably has some of the lowest transit rates in the city. If you ever drive out there it seems like most driveways have 3-4 cars. The SSE will better serve people north of Ellesmere though, who are currently underserved.

 

[Johnny Au]

Etobicoke is much smaller and narrower - so it can feel well served by subway even though it isn't really. Etobicoke is also pretty much split across the middle with a large industrial area, and most residents live south of it, within a few km of the Bloor-Danforth line. Probably 70-80% of people living in Etobicoke are within a 10 minute bus ride of the subway.

The residential areas in Northern Etobicoke are terribly served by rapid transit right now, though it's better than it used to be with the Spadina extension. The Finch LRT should help with that.

Scarborough comparatively has only a small area on the southern fringe of the borough that are within a quick bus ride of the subway. If you aren't south of Ellesmere or west of Markham Rd, you are pretty much in transit no-go zones unless you like really long bus rides.

Far eastern Scarborough is never going to be a transit utopia, but other than Malvern it's a pretty low density, high income area anyway that probably has some of the lowest transit rates in the city. If you ever drive out there it seems like most driveways have 3-4 cars. The SSE will better serve people north of Ellesmere though, who are currently underserved.

The Toronto Zoo requires a long bus ride, even from Scarborough Centre station, given that the zoo is deep within the Rouge Valley.