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Eglinton West LRT | Metrolinx

TossYourJacket

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how come it feels like these so called reports already had a pre determined conclusion from the beginning and they are just dumping 20000 wds in an eloquent way to justified an
already shaped opinion?
It really does, especially when you consider things such as that they designed the Scarlett station to not have redundant elevators and then complained about a lack of redundant elevators. That's a design decision, not some intrinsic failure of elevated transit stations. Hurdman Station in Ottawa is elevated with side platforms (like their mockup of Scarlett Station) and has redundant elevators for each platform.
 

robmausser

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Note the reasons for it though. "introduces vertical transfers", "reduced intuitive wayfinding", "impacts natural surveillance".

First of all, what the heck is "natural surveillance"? Second of all, do you honestly think that people would rather have their commute be 10 minutes longer to avoid a set of stairs? what?

The weighing of the pros and cons in the City's analysis was rigged to make the at grade alignment the "preferred option".

Elevated had double the ridership, half the travel time, and was generally a much more effective transit system. The City was cheaping out because they didn't want to foot the bill for it.
Yeah this report was absolutely absurd. They completely overbuilt the hell out of every station just to make absolutely sure the cost was outside the scope. Not only that, but at the grade separations they elevated the stations like crazy, without any other type of separation? Perhaps creating a small underpass by trenching the road so the stations dont have to be so high? Or trenching the LRT line? etc. There are multiple ways to create a grade separation at an intersection other than elevating, you know how I know? BECAUSE WE DID IT AT DON MILLS FOR SCIENCE CENTRE STATION!

You could make up just as many metrics for having the LRT in the middle of the road:

-Difficult accessibility: users have to cross street to get to LRT station, incurring risk of vehicle strike. LRT station in the middle of street poses danger as well
-Ineffective climate protection: users would be exposed to the elements and could suffer frostbite, other ailments from winter cold.
-slow as $%* transit method is a pain in the ass to use, stopping at every intersection. Transit Priority is a buzzword that barely helps travel times.
etc.
 

TossYourJacket

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-Difficult accessibility: users have to cross street to get to LRT station, incurring risk of vehicle strike. LRT station in the middle of street poses danger as well
Seriously, the risk of death from trying to walk to a median station in this city on an arterial suburban road is a way bigger problem than anything they described as a problem with elevated/underground stations.
 

Steve X

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It really does, especially when you consider things such as that they designed the Scarlett station to not have redundant elevators and then complained about a lack of redundant elevators. That's a design decision, not some intrinsic failure of elevated transit stations. Hurdman Station in Ottawa is elevated with side platforms (like their mockup of Scarlett Station) and has redundant elevators for each platform.
It makes no difference between elevated and underground stations not having reducant elevators. Ottawa's Confederation Line replaces an existing Transitway with a much higher demand than what the Eglinton West LRT would ever demand. It makes a lot more sense to have more elevators on the Confederation Line. Considering how pack their trains are. they are probably carrying about 6000-8000 ppdph right now, about 3-4 times the demand the Eglinton West LRT is forecasted to operate in 2031.
 

W. K. Lis

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Scarlett Road and Jane Street are on Humber River floodplains. Based on Hurricane Hazel, but could be worse because of rain runoff from parking lots, asphalt roadways, and roofs. All would add to a worse scenario.

From link.

211236


Floods may also be a problem west of Martin Grove & Eglinton. May not be able to go underground west of Martin Grove Road.
211237


Bet some of those homes and businesses under that blue would have high insurance costs because of the threat of flooding.
 
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Reecemartin

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Note the reasons for it though. "introduces vertical transfers", "reduced intuitive wayfinding", "impacts natural surveillance".

First of all, what the heck is "natural surveillance"? Second of all, do you honestly think that people would rather have their commute be 10 minutes longer to avoid a set of stairs? what?

The weighing of the pros and cons in the City's analysis was rigged to make the at grade alignment the "preferred option".

Elevated had double the ridership, half the travel time, and was generally a much more effective transit system. The City was cheaping out because they didn't want to foot the bill for it.
Any analysis done on Qualitative criteria is most likely not worth much, as you can see with qualitative analysis you can bend things however you like.

how come it feels like these so called reports already had a pre determined conclusion from the beginning and they are just dumping 20000 wds in an eloquent way to justified an
already shaped opinion?
Because thats what they are for! hehe
 

robmausser

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Any analysis done on Qualitative criteria is most likely not worth much, as you can see with qualitative analysis you can bend things however you like.
This is a huge problem with government projects... the metrics they use for success are weird buzzwords that mean nothing quantitatively. I read a report for the Meadoway and one criteria for the choice of a bridge was "good neighbour". What? What does that even mean?? The bridge is going to let you borrow a cup of sugar when you are out and invite you to all its block parties?
 

Adjei

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From 2017, the EGLINTON WEST LRT EXTENSION TECHNICAL & PLANNING UPDATE from this link.

View attachment 210968

View attachment 210969

Notice the "Not Preferred"s in the images from the PDF.
See the kind of biased reporting coming from the city of Toronto. No wonder they are so against elevated transit such as the Ontario Line. If it had been Metrolinx which produced such a biased report from for the provincial government, we would have heard so much condemnation from the usual suspects but because it's from the city, we don't hear anything from them.
 

Sagaris88

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Note the reasons for it though. "introduces vertical transfers", "reduced intuitive wayfinding", "impacts natural surveillance".

First of all, what the heck is "natural surveillance"? Second of all, do you honestly think that people would rather have their commute be 10 minutes longer to avoid a set of stairs? what?

The weighing of the pros and cons in the City's analysis was rigged to make the at grade alignment the "preferred option".

Elevated had double the ridership, half the travel time, and was generally a much more effective transit system. The City was cheaping out because they didn't want to foot the bill for it.
A quick Google search will easily answer your question of what natural surveillance is.

"Natural surveillance is a design strategy that is directed at keeping intruders under observation. Designing for natural surveillance involves providing ample opportunity for legitimate users, engaged in their normal activities to observe the space around them. Natural surveillance is the placement of physical features and/or activities, and people that maximizes natural
visibility or observation." (St Petersburg Police Department)

Having an elevated design with stairs and columns blocking lines of sight can be detrimental to people's sense of safety.
 

Sagaris88

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This is a huge problem with government projects... the metrics they use for success are weird buzzwords that mean nothing quantitatively. I read a report for the Meadoway and one criteria for the choice of a bridge was "good neighbour". What? What does that even mean?? The bridge is going to let you borrow a cup of sugar when you are out and invite you to all its block parties?
Can you provide a link to the report?

The Good Neighbour policies concern with being transparent and sociable and communicative with the community and within it. Like a policy that encourages socialization with neighbours. Like a policy that the TTC is transparent in information with the community as if the TTC is a good neighbour. It wouldn't make much sense if it was applied to a physical structure.

EDIT: Nevermind, I found the report. Literally in the report it details what "Good Neighbour" means.

"• Minimizes potential for operation and maintenance impacts on the hydro
infrastructure and restored meadow
• Minimizes potential for impact on neighbours adjacent to the hydro
corridor as well as trail or road users"

So no, it's not just "weird buzzwords that mean nothing quantitatively." These words have meaning. And yeah, that's the point of qualitative terms, they aren't quantitative as many things aren't.
 
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sixrings

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A quick Google search will easily answer your question of what natural surveillance is.

"Natural surveillance is a design strategy that is directed at keeping intruders under observation. Designing for natural surveillance involves providing ample opportunity for legitimate users, engaged in their normal activities to observe the space around them. Natural surveillance is the placement of physical features and/or activities, and people that maximizes natural
visibility or observation." (St Petersburg Police Department)

Having an elevated design with stairs and columns blocking lines of sight can be detrimental to people's sense of safety.
Having the train in the middle of the road can be detrimental to people's sense of safety. Therefore we can't build up, or at ground level. We must always build underground. What about the people who have fear of being underground or in tight areas? Maybe we shouldn't build anything at all.
 

Sagaris88

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Having the train in the middle of the road can be detrimental to people's sense of safety. Therefore we can't build up, or at ground level. We must always build underground. What about the people who have fear of being underground or in tight areas? Maybe we shouldn't build anything at all.
I'm just reporting what Natural Surveillance is as term for policing and design. It's specifically about people's sense of security in knowing where other things and especially other people are. It's about people fearful of someone hiding behind a pillar that could attack you. It's about designing to prevent offenders from commiting a crime. It has absolutely nothing to do with fear of underground or aboveground.
 
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Sagaris88

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Seriously, the risk of death from trying to walk to a median station in this city on an arterial suburban road is a way bigger problem than anything they described as a problem with elevated/underground stations.
Even in the elevated and underground options for Eglinton West, people still have to cross the road anyways to get to the stations. People have to cross the road on their way to the station. People cross the street all the time. It's an extremely rare occurrence that someone incurs a vehicle strike. It's absolutely a problem vehicle strikes, but it exists in any situation.
 

sixrings

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I'm just reporting what Natural Surveillance is as term for policing and design. It's specifically about people's sense of security in knowing where other things and especially other people are. It's about people fearful of someone hiding behind a pillar that could attack you. It's about designing to prevent offenders from commiting a crime. It has absolutely nothing to do with fear of underground or aboveground.
I'm just pointing out that nothing is perfect and we have to make decisions in an imperfect world. We shouldn't let perfect become the enemy of good. Every report is susceptible to bias and Eglinton west is no different.
 

Sagaris88

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I'm just pointing out that nothing is perfect and we have to make decisions in an imperfect world. We shouldn't let perfect become the enemy of good. Every report is susceptible to bias and Eglinton west is no different.
I don't see how including that Natural Surveillance will be hindered in an aboveground or underground option for Eglinton West is "biased". The at-grade format with many lines of sight in what is essentially an open plan design is much better for Natural Surveillance than the worse lines of sight in the other options. Simply stating this isn't bias. It's not like the report states that hindered Natural Surveillance is the sole reason to not move forward with aboveground or underground options.
 

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