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Eglinton West LRT | Metrolinx

TheTigerMaster

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If the Eglinton Crosstown doesn't need 10,000+ ppdph of capacity on day 1 I can't help but see that as a failure, it has an incredibly important existing bus route and is the only proper crosstown line in the city besides Bloor. It is mind boggling that in a city this large we would expect so little demand, that's only the same as a few successful bus routes peak capacity.

And by the way, the section East of Yonge should be busy, its going to have two of the busiest bus routes in the city (Don Mills and Lawrence East) feeding into it, if it doesn't attract people at Kennedy, maybe a slow tram line shouldn't have been the second crosstown.

With the Ontario Line on the table, the best configuration for the Crosstown would have been a fully grade separated intermediate capacity line travelling between Etobicoke and Scarborough Centre. Such a line would have facilitated travel "across the town". Eglinton Line customers could transfer at Scarborough Centre to access most of Scarborough's major bus routes.

The problem with pursuing a fully grade separated intermediate capacity line travelling between Etobicoke and Scarborough Centre back in 2010 is that the Yonge Line was already overcapacity and it absolutely could not handle the demand that would be induced by that Eglinton Line configuration. The Yonge Line crowding issues limited the Eglinton Line configurations that would have been genuinely feasible back then.

If I could go back in time, and if money were no object, I would have scrapped the Eglinton Crosstown in favour of a Downtown Relief Line terminating at Eglinton and Don Mills. Only after its completion would I have then pursued the Eglinton Crosstown terminating at Scarborough Centre. This sequencing would ensure that the Eglinton Line would not crush the Yonge Line with overcrowding.

However a compounding issue was the imminent retirement of the Scarborough RT. Would it have been possible to build the DRL to Eglinton and replace the SRT with the Eglinton Line prior to the SRT retirement? Almost certainly not. Especially with the very limited funds being provided by the McGuinty government of the day. If I remember correctly, only about $7 Billion was on the table, with no further funds anticipated to come down the pipeline. That would have been enough to build either: (A) Eglinton Crosstown to Scarborough Centre or (B) the Downtown Relief Line to Eglinton. Option A would leave the Yonge Line pepetually overcrowded with no relief plans in sight and option B would relieve the Yonge Line, with no replacement for the SRT. Both options were technically unacceptable.

So in short, yes, I find the current configuration of the Crosstown to be unfortunate. I would have preferred a genuine crosstown line, and the current configuration falls well short of that. If there's any lesson in this, I suppose its that we must design transit projects that work well in relation to the broader network, while also being a little less tight with the purse strings for critical infrastructure.
 

JSF-1

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If I could go back in time, and if money were no object, I would have scrapped the Eglinton Crosstown in favour of a Downtown Relief Line terminating at Eglinton and Don Mills. Only after its completion would I have then pursued the Eglinton Crosstown terminating at Scarborough Centre. This sequencing would ensure that the Eglinton Line would not crush the Yonge Line with overcrowding.
This was essentially the order of operations for Network 2011. The Sheppard Line was to be built first, followed by the DRL and then the Eglinton West line last. Now the Eglinton West Subway was a horrible idea and were lucky it wasn't built but thats another story. Now we can argue if the Eglinton Line and Sheppard Line should have been Light Metro's although at the time Light Metro's weren't really a thing and the ICTS Trains were the first of there kind and didn't impress on the SRT. It kind of soured the TTC on the whole idea, although that wasn't helped by the fact the ICTS trains were really the only major Light Metro trains on the market. Not to mention the politics about all of it. Try telling the suburbs they are going to get a "Half-subway" while downtown gets a full subway. This was even a problem back then.
 

Steve X

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It’s there really a definition for light metro? Is ML’s claims really true?
Some cities would call our Sheppard Line light metro cause it’s shorter than regular trains which could be 8-12 cars long in some cities.
Some cities call a fully grade separated system light rail while others could use light rail vehicles on a light metro system.

Calling things half subway would just fuel a war. This city should stop terms that add confusion and give the media stupid things to pick on. They should have called the SRT LRT project the “SRT renewal upgrade” instead of calling it converting to light rail. It got everyone fooled that it will end up like Shappard East in the middle of the road.
 

ARG1

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It’s there really a definition for light metro? Is ML’s claims really true?
Some cities would call our Sheppard Line light metro cause it’s shorter than regular trains which could be 8-12 cars long in some cities.
Some cities call a fully grade separated system light rail while others could use light rail vehicles on a light metro system.

Calling things half subway would just fuel a war. This city should stop terms that add confusion and give the media stupid things to pick on. They should have called the SRT LRT project the “SRT renewal upgrade” instead of calling it converting to light rail. It got everyone fooled that it will end up like Shappard East in the middle of the road.
TBF at least Light Metro is a bit more well defined than LRT, which at this point can mean absolute anything. It can mean a mixed traffic tram, or a tramway in its own lanes, a lower capacity S-Bahn style service, A fully grade separated metro-like service, and even a single tracked diesel service running european regional rail trains.
 

Rainforest

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If the Eglinton Crosstown doesn't need 10,000+ ppdph of capacity on day 1 I can't help but see that as a failure, it has an incredibly important existing bus route and is the only proper crosstown line in the city besides Bloor. It is mind boggling that in a city this large we would expect so little demand, that's only the same as a few successful bus routes peak capacity.

And by the way, the section East of Yonge should be busy, its going to have two of the busiest bus routes in the city (Don Mills and Lawrence East) feeding into it, if it doesn't attract people at Kennedy, maybe a slow tram line shouldn't have been the second crosstown.

The opening day peak forecasts for EC LRT were in the range of 5,500 to 7,500. Definitely below 10,000. Might be greater in the west now, with EW LRT being fully grade separated.

A failure? Definitely not. Sheppard subway had a peak of 5,500 pre-Covid. TYSSE is about same as Sheppard, or less. SSE forecast is up to 14,000 (east of Kennedy), but I think it is a bit exaggerated, 11,000 - 12,000 is more likely. And SSE is a trunk line for a huge suburb with a large population. So, 7,000 is a decent load.

The section east of Yonge will be very well used, but don't forget that it will have 3 transfer points: Yonge, Science Centre, and Kennedy. That means, riders will come and go. Unlike many existing bus routes, where the riders keep piling up until the bus reaches the ultimate destination at Yonge or at Bloor. Furthermore, a fair number of ECLRT riders will travel counter-peak, for example from Brentcliffe to Ontario Line in the AM peak. That kind of usage pattern results in a high total number of boardings, but a modest peak load.
 

W. K. Lis

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From 1969 to 1978, the University Subway (Line 1) was closed and replaced by buses between Union Station and St George Station, during the late evenings and on Sundays. Don't think that will happen with the Eglinton West LRT extension.

Still waiting for that to happen with the Sheppard East Subway (Line 4).
 

TheTigerMaster

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The opening day peak forecasts for EC LRT were in the range of 5,500 to 7,500. Definitely below 10,000. Might be greater in the west now, with EW LRT being fully grade separated.

A failure? Definitely not. Sheppard subway had a peak of 5,500 pre-Covid. TYSSE is about same as Sheppard, or less. SSE forecast is up to 14,000 (east of Kennedy), but I think it is a bit exaggerated, 11,000 - 12,000 is more likely. And SSE is a trunk line for a huge suburb with a large population. So, 7,000 is a decent load.
The funny thing about the Eglinton Line is that the central and most expensive portion of the line will also see the least usage.

Eastbound into Eglinton West was expected to see about 7,500 pphpd
Westbound into Yonge was expected to see about 5,500 pphpd. With the OL in place, I'd expect westbound into Don Mills to see around 5,000 pphpd.
The expensive section between Don Mills and Eglinton West will see significantly less traffic, as most customers will transfer onto the OL or Spadina Line to access downtown.
 

Rainforest

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The funny thing about the Eglinton Line is that the central and most expensive portion of the line will also see the least usage.

Eastbound into Eglinton West was expected to see about 7,500 pphpd
Westbound into Yonge was expected to see about 5,500 pphpd. With the OL in place, I'd expect westbound into Don Mills to see around 5,000 pphpd.
The expensive section between Don Mills and Eglinton West will see significantly less traffic, as most customers will transfer onto the OL or Spadina Line to access downtown.

Yes, that's somewhat ironic.

But on the other hand, the boarding counts between Allen Rd and Don Mills should be pretty high. It's just the peak ridership that will be lower, because the riders will tend to transfer at one of the subway connections, and their paths will overlap less.
 

Rainforest

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From 1969 to 1978, the University Subway (Line 1) was closed and replaced by buses between Union Station and St George Station, during the late evenings and on Sundays. Don't think that will happen with the Eglinton West LRT extension.

Still waiting for that to happen with the Sheppard East Subway (Line 4).

Pretty sure Eg West will not be replaced by buses during the late evenings. At nights, maybe, but only together with the whole Eglinton line.

For Line 4, it would make perfect sense to use buses during the late evenings, say after 11 pm. Fewer transfers for the riders who travel east of Don Mills, and the bus would be nearly as fast as the subway at that late hour. Don't know why TTC isn't doing that.
 

afransen

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Just call this thing the Crosstown and thats that. Its its own animal. Not quite subway, not quite streetcar, its its own thing.
The Crosstown line that only a crazy person would actually consider riding across town.
 

W. K. Lis

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The Crosstown line that only a crazy person would actually consider riding across town.
I think people in Etobicoke would want to use Line 5 to travel to the Science Centre Station. Especially since kids under 12 travel free on the TTC.

Is the "Golden Mile" still a "tourist attraction"? Oops! Wrong "Golden Mile"! 😄 😄

GoldenMileDurbanduringJulyFest2004.jpg
From link.
That's the Golden Mile (or, colloquially, "The Mile") along the popular stretch of beachfront in the city of Durban, KwaZulu-Natal, South Africa
 

drum118

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From 1969 to 1978, the University Subway (Line 1) was closed and replaced by buses between Union Station and St George Station, during the late evenings and on Sundays. Don't think that will happen with the Eglinton West LRT extension.

Still waiting for that to happen with the Sheppard East Subway (Line 4).
It has been stated a number of time by TTC staff that the it was best to close Line 4 down 100% and use buses since it was far cheaper to do. S17 vs $1.95 a rider is a huge saving.

The power to be refused to close line 4 as it would be admitting it should have never gotten built in the first place as well killing the idea of extending it to STC.
 

Rainforest

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It has been stated a number of time by TTC staff that the it was best to close Line 4 down 100% and use buses since it was far cheaper to do. S17 vs $1.95 a rider is a huge saving.

The power to be refused to close line 4 as it would be admitting it should have never gotten built in the first place as well killing the idea of extending it to STC.

I do not support the idea of closing Line 4 entirely, and there is no case for that IMO.

$17 is the "total daily cost per user", that includes the operational expenses, the payments on the public debt equivalent of the construction cost, and probably the capital maintenance as well. If you close the subway, you do not recover the funds that went into building it. You save on the operational expenses, but you need to buy a large fleet of buses to extend the routes terminating at Don Mills today. In order to run to Yonge and maintain the same frequency, every route will need more buses. And then you have to pay the operational expenses of those additional buses.

Furthermore, that 5,500 pphpd peak ridership may be low for the subway, but trying to carry all those riders on buses would turn Sheppard into an insane river of buses.

However, a late-evening only closure can probably save some money, and might even be more convenient for the riders because it would save them a transfer.
 

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