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Eglinton West LRT | Metrolinx

KhalilHeron

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Science Center is a far more important transfer point because of the Ontario Line connection. Forcing all trains to short turn earlier because of a single at grade crossing is just sad.

Sure, but any form of delay will have serious knock on effects. Remember we're considering Eglinton here including the Eglinton East extension, so now if you want to transfer to the Ontario Line northbound, or even trying to reach Scarborough Center, you know have to get off your train, wait for another train to pass, and them maybe you can now continue east just to ride it out 2 stops, all because of some accident at UTSC. The thing about YUS is that while delays do happen due to its length, at least its fully grade separated so the causes of delays are limited to some guy decided to run on the tracks, or someone held the door. With Eglinton, trains in Etobicoke can be delayed due to anything from some passenger taking too long to cross, to a car resting on the tracks because of congestion, a car accident, poorly timed traffic signals, or some idiot walking along the tracks (far easier and far more likely compared to the subway).
I mean we'll just have to wait and see how things work out when the line and its extensions open, but I don't think the line will have to be split. There are many lrt lines that are just as if not more prone to delays that are longer and manage. I think having everything ready to split the line in two at science centre will be good for if there are any delays on either side, but having the line split in two during normal operation kind of ignores the point of having a "crosstown" line in the first place.
 

Rainforest

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Science Center is a far more important transfer point because of the Ontario Line connection. Forcing all trains to short turn earlier because of a single at grade crossing is just sad.

Sure, but any form of delay will have serious knock on effects. Remember we're considering Eglinton here including the Eglinton East extension, so now if you want to transfer to the Ontario Line northbound, or even trying to reach Scarborough Center, you know have to get off your train, wait for another train to pass, and them maybe you can now continue east just to ride it out 2 stops, all because of some accident at UTSC. The thing about YUS is that while delays do happen due to its length, at least its fully grade separated so the causes of delays are limited to some guy decided to run on the tracks, or someone held the door. With Eglinton, trains in Etobicoke can be delayed due to anything from some passenger taking too long to cross, to a car resting on the tracks because of congestion, a car accident, poorly timed traffic signals, or some idiot walking along the tracks (far easier and far more likely compared to the subway).

All those causes of delay are possible, but do not happen that often on the existing bus routes or surface streetcar routes. 95% of delays on those routes are caused by traffic congestion, which will not be the case for any part of ECLRT.

I imagine that the majority of riders will prefer a continuous route at the cost of being delayed once in a couple of months, rather than a route permanently split to avoid the delay propagation.
 

TheTigerMaster

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The Crosstown LRT spanning from Hurontario to UTSC would be a whopping 47 km. That would be one of the longest tram lines in the world, although it wouldn't come close to the Belgian Coast line, which is 67 km.

Capacity would not be an issue unless it exceeds 15,000 pphpd at any single point.

On the eastern half of the line (east of Yonge), peak ridership will be very low. Only 5,400 people were anticipated to be travelling westbound into Yonge Station in the peak hour without the Ontario Line. With the Ontario Line in place, Eglinton Crosstown will see even less peak ridership into Yonge Station. In fact the 504 King and 510 Spadina lines will likely have higher peak ridership than the westbound Eglinton Crosstown at the AM peak (King currently sees 3,000 max pphpd eastbound at Spadina).

On the western half, capacity will be more of a concern, although it should still be manageable. About 7,000 pphpd were anticipated to be travelling eastbound into Eglinton West Station at peak hour if the line were extended to Renforth. That's a volume-to-capacity ratio of 0.45. It's very hard for me to imagine an extension to Hurontario more than doubling the eastbound peak ridership into Eglinton West Station, so I don't see capacity being an issue there either. It's very unlikely that travellers from Mississauga will be making the trip all the way to Eglinton West. Especially when we consider the that GO RER and the Ontario Line will both likely be in place to receive crowding west of Eglinton West.

If I had to take a half educated guess, I'd say that any Eglinton Crosstown extension to 'sauga will primarily be used to travel between Hurontario and Renforth Gateway to access the Airport employment lands.

It's important to remember that the travel destination on the Eglinton Line are a lot less concentrated than what we see on Line 2. With Line 2, the AM peak alightings are primarily at Bloor-Yonge, St. George and Pape (when the Ontario Line opens). This means that on-train crowding will continue to increase until the train reaches on of those three stations. With the Eglinton Line, those AM peak alightings would UTSC, Kennedy, Don Mills, Yonge, Eglinton West, Mount Dennis, Renforth Gateway (Airport) and Hurontario. That means that despite the length of the Crosstown, the multitude of destination stations along its route will keep peak ridership low.
 
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TheTigerMaster

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If I had to take a half educated guess, I'd say that any Eglinton Crosstown extension to 'sauga will primarily be used to travel between Hurontario and Renforth Gateway to access the Airport employment lands.
Also, if this is the case, a Crosstown extension to Mississauga would not make any sense. These trips will be served adequately by the Mississauaga Transitway. A Crosstown extension would only make sense here to add additional capacity to the transitway.
 

LNahid2000

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The Crosstown LRT spanning from Hurontario to UTSC would be a whopping 47 km. That would be one of the longest tram lines in the world, although it wouldn't come close to the Belgian Coast line, which is 67 km.
Fun fact! LA's A Line will surpass the length of the Belgian Coast line at 79.7km once the Regional Connector is completed next year.
 

W. K. Lis

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Fun fact! LA's A Line will surpass the length of the Belgian Coast line at 79.7km once the Regional Connector is completed next year.
The bad news is that the stations can be very far apart in LA. From link (2016).
Here is a interesting way of looking at L.A. County’s rail and Bus Rapid Transit systems. Martin Leitner at Torti Gallas and Partners architecture firm did a “map hack” showing how long it takes to walk from each Metro station to the next. From Leitner:

We found that some stations are only a few minutes apart, 7-12 minutes in Koreatown and East LA, they are a stunning 104 minutes apart on the Green Line (Long Beach Blvd – Lakewood Blvd) and 79 minutes apart between on the Red Line (Hollywood/Highland – Studio City). Some long walk times also on the Gold Line.
WalkTimeMap.jpg

For higher resolution see [PDF]

Wait a minute! WALK in LA? 😄 😄 😄 They have sidewalks?

About the walks between the stations in LA, add more time because of cul-de-sacs, crescents, and other mazes, fences, and construction.
 
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ARG1

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The bad news is that the stations can be very far apart in LA. From link (2016).

WalkTimeMap.jpg

For higher resolution see [PDF]

Wait a minute! WALK in LA? 😄 😄 😄 They have sidewalks?

About the walks between the stations in LA, add more time because of cul-de-sacs, crescents, and other mazes, fences, and construction.
LA has the right idea though. While LA does have a lot of problems with local service (something it should definitely improve on), anything that considers itself Rapid Transit should never have short stop spacing unless its at the very end of a line (The short stop spacing in Long Beach for instance is generally okay.) Having trains stop less often generally means that if you're building an LRT, you can offset the time loss that is incurred by having the system run at grade, making it more like actual "Rapid Transit". Again I point to Viva as an example in Toronto where this is generally done right, Viva Blue still has the 98/99 bus running alongside it, Viva Orange has the 7, Viva Silver will have the 4(A) and the 20, etc.
 

Rainforest

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The Crosstown LRT spanning from Hurontario to UTSC would be a whopping 47 km. That would be one of the longest tram lines in the world, although it wouldn't come close to the Belgian Coast line, which is 67 km.

Capacity would not be an issue unless it exceeds 15,000 pphpd at any single point.

On the eastern half of the line (east of Yonge), peak ridership will be very low. Only 5,400 people were anticipated to be travelling westbound into Yonge Station in the peak hour without the Ontario Line. With the Ontario Line in place, Eglinton Crosstown will see even less peak ridership into Yonge Station. In fact the 504 King and 510 Spadina lines will likely have higher peak ridership than the westbound Eglinton Crosstown at the AM peak (King currently sees 3,000 max pphpd eastbound at Spadina).

On the western half, capacity will be more of a concern, although it should still be manageable. About 7,000 pphpd were anticipated to be travelling eastbound into Eglinton West Station at peak hour if the line were extended to Renforth. That's a volume-to-capacity ratio of 0.45. It's very hard for me to imagine an extension to Hurontario more than doubling the eastbound peak ridership into Eglinton West Station, so I don't see capacity being an issue there either. It's very unlikely that travellers from Mississauga will be making the trip all the way to Eglinton West. Especially when we consider the that GO RER and the Ontario Line will both likely be in place to receive crowding west of Eglinton West.

If I had to take a half educated guess, I'd say that any Eglinton Crosstown extension to 'sauga will primarily be used to travel between Hurontario and Renforth Gateway to access the Airport employment lands.

It's important to remember that the travel destination on the Eglinton Line are a lot less concentrated than what we see on Line 2. With Line 2, the AM peak alightings are primarily at Bloor-Yonge, St. George and Pape (when the Ontario Line opens). This means that on-train crowding will continue to increase until the train reaches on of those three stations. With the Eglinton Line, those AM peak alightings would UTSC, Kennedy, Don Mills, Yonge, Eglinton West, Mount Dennis, Renforth Gateway (Airport) and Hurontario. That means that despite the length of the Crosstown, the multitude of destination stations along its route will keep peak ridership low.

Indeed, I wouldn't be concerned about the eastern section. With the volume split between multiple transfer points - Yonge, Science Centre, Kennedy, the load is unlikely to exceed 5,000 pphpd at any given point. That can be handled, even with 2-car trains. Each train carrying up to 2 x 175 = 350, 15 trains per hour will provide the required capacity.

But the western section demand is hard to predict. With ECLRT tunneled, it will become a de-facto subway, and as such will prompt the riders of north-south buses: Kipling, Islington, Royal York, to transfer to ECLRT instead of staying on the bus till it reaches Bloor. The scale of that shift is unknown.

Furthermore, there might exist a latent demand for transit trips between Mississauga and mid-town Toronto. Currently, that demand is totally invisible because no route serves it. Only the most desperate riders can use Eglinton or Lawrence buses for such trips, everyone else either drives or avoids the trip altogether. Once a somewhat decent travel option is provided by the combination of the Transitway and the Eglinton LRT, that demand will show itself. Again, the scale is unknown.

So, the combined Eg West demand can vary broadly, from "less that Eg East" and then everyone will be asking "why did we build a tunnel for such a low-demand route", to > 10,000 pphpd and then everyone will be saying "perhaps we should have built larger stations". I still don't believe it will reach 15,000 pphpd, but anything above 11,000 will probably require a switch to 3-car trains. If the highest manageable frequency is one train in 2 min, then we can have up to 30 trains per hour. With 2-car trains, that's 10,500 pphpd max. With 3-car trains, up to 15,700 in theory, if the station platforms and stairs can handle that.
 

W. K. Lis

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Indeed, I wouldn't be concerned about the eastern section. With the volume split between multiple transfer points - Yonge, Science Centre, Kennedy, the load is unlikely to exceed 5,000 pphpd at any given point. That can be handled, even with 2-car trains. Each train carrying up to 2 x 175 = 350, 15 trains per hour will provide the required capacity.

But the western section demand is hard to predict. With ECLRT tunneled, it will become a de-facto subway, and as such will prompt the riders of north-south buses: Kipling, Islington, Royal York, to transfer to ECLRT instead of staying on the bus till it reaches Bloor. The scale of that shift is unknown.

Furthermore, there might exist a latent demand for transit trips between Mississauga and mid-town Toronto. Currently, that demand is totally invisible because no route serves it. Only the most desperate riders can use Eglinton or Lawrence buses for such trips, everyone else either drives or avoids the trip altogether. Once a somewhat decent travel option is provided by the combination of the Transitway and the Eglinton LRT, that demand will show itself. Again, the scale is unknown.

So, the combined Eg West demand can vary broadly, from "less that Eg East" and then everyone will be asking "why did we build a tunnel for such a low-demand route", to > 10,000 pphpd and then everyone will be saying "perhaps we should have built larger stations". I still don't believe it will reach 15,000 pphpd, but anything above 11,000 will probably require a switch to 3-car trains. If the highest manageable frequency is one train in 2 min, then we can have up to 30 trains per hour. With 2-car trains, that's 10,500 pphpd max. With 3-car trains, up to 15,700 in theory, if the station platforms and stairs can handle that.
Don't forget about Line 6 (Finch West LRT), which would draw bus passengers from around and north of Finch Avenue (and west of Jane Street and Keele Street), to get them to the Finch West Station on Line 1. They might be able to get a seat on Line 1 going south to downtown.
 

TheTigerMaster

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Furthermore, there might exist a latent demand for transit trips between Mississauga and mid-town Toronto. Currently, that demand is totally invisible because no route serves it. Only the most desperate riders can use Eglinton or Lawrence buses for such trips, everyone else either drives or avoids the trip altogether. Once a somewhat decent travel option is provided by the combination of the Transitway and the Eglinton LRT, that demand will show itself. Again, the scale is unknown.
I'm not convinced we'll see huge AM inbound travel demand towards midtown Toronto. The demand for office space in Midtown Toronto is rather low, even with the Eglinton Crosstown about to open.

Businesses have a very strong preference for locating Downtown, and I do not see that changing in the foreseeable future, particularly with the huge amount of highly desirable Downtown office space coming down the development pipeline (including East Harbour on the periphery of Downtown).

But the western section demand is hard to predict. With ECLRT tunneled, it will become a de-facto subway, and as such will prompt the riders of north-south buses: Kipling, Islington, Royal York, to transfer to ECLRT instead of staying on the bus till it reaches Bloor. The scale of that shift is unknown.
It is hard to predict. But I don't think the shift to an underground alignment will dramatically increase ridership. With the targeted grade separations in place and elimination of mid-block stops, the surface alignment would've operated at similar speeds and reliability compared to the underground alignment.

So, the combined Eg West demand can vary broadly, from "less that Eg East" and then everyone will be asking "why did we build a tunnel for such a low-demand route", to > 10,000 pphpd and then everyone will be saying "perhaps we should have built larger stations". I still don't believe it will reach 15,000 pphpd, but anything above 11,000 will probably require a switch to 3-car trains. If the highest manageable frequency is one train in 2 min, then we can have up to 30 trains per hour. With 2-car trains, that's 10,500 pphpd max. With 3-car trains, up to 15,700 in theory, if the station platforms and stairs can handle that.
I more or less agree. I'd expect ridership of about 7,000 to 10,000 pphpd eastbound into Eglinton West Station (probably on the lower end of that spectrum), unless we see a massive midtown office boom.
 

ARG1

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I'm not convinced we'll see huge AM inbound travel demand towards midtown Toronto. The demand for office space in Midtown Toronto is rather low, even with the Eglinton Crosstown about to open.

Businesses have a very strong preference for locating Downtown, and I do not see that changing in the foreseeable future, particularly with the huge amount of highly desirable Downtown office space coming down the development pipeline (including East Harbour on the periphery of Downtown).


It is hard to predict. But I don't think the shift to an underground alignment will dramatically increase ridership. With the targeted grade separations in place and elimination of mid-block stops, the surface alignment would've operated at similar speeds and reliability compared to the underground alignment.


I more or less agree. I'd expect ridership of about 7,000 to 10,000 pphpd eastbound into Eglinton West Station (probably on the lower end of that spectrum), unless we see a massive midtown office boom.
The thing is that there probably will be a midtown office boom. In fact I'd wager and say that there's going to be significant upzoning and massive developments along the entirety of Eglinton, and we might begin seeing capacity constraints as soon as in 15 years.
 

AlvinofDiaspar

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The thing is that there probably will be a midtown office boom. In fact I'd wager and say that there's going to be significant upzoning and massive developments along the entirety of Eglinton, and we might begin seeing capacity constraints as soon as in 15 years.

There is no sign of a midtown office boom - historically midtown had been stagnant like NYCC (at best) in terms of office commercial developments - and whatever proposals there are are more or less 1:1 replacement. What we will have is a condo boom for sure (but that had been going on for awhile).

AoD
 
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W. K. Lis

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There is no sign of a midtown office boom - historically midtown had been stagnant like NYCC (at best) in terms of office commercial developments - and whatever proposals there are are more or less 1:1 replacement. What we will have is a condo boom for sure (but that had been going on for awhile).

AoD
Depends upon one's definition of "midtown". Wouldn't Eglinton & Don Mills see mixed-use development? What about Eglinton & Black Creek? Most likely developments will be mixed-use, commercial AND residential, not single-use.

See link.
78f2fcc04f6169750b0d0a5e12e6d176.jpg
 

superelevation

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I mean we'll just have to wait and see how things work out when the line and its extensions open, but I don't think the line will have to be split. There are many lrt lines that are just as if not more prone to delays that are longer and manage. I think having everything ready to split the line in two at science centre will be good for if there are any delays on either side, but having the line split in two during normal operation kind of ignores the point of having a "crosstown" line in the first place.

Yeah but most LRT lines (in America) aren't run at the frequencies we operate in Toronto, that makes delay and timing issues much worse.

The Crosstown LRT spanning from Hurontario to UTSC would be a whopping 47 km. That would be one of the longest tram lines in the world, although it wouldn't come close to the Belgian Coast line, which is 67 km.

Capacity would not be an issue unless it exceeds 15,000 pphpd at any single point.

On the eastern half of the line (east of Yonge), peak ridership will be very low. Only 5,400 people were anticipated to be travelling westbound into Yonge Station in the peak hour without the Ontario Line. With the Ontario Line in place, Eglinton Crosstown will see even less peak ridership into Yonge Station. In fact the 504 King and 510 Spadina lines will likely have higher peak ridership than the westbound Eglinton Crosstown at the AM peak (King currently sees 3,000 max pphpd eastbound at Spadina).

On the western half, capacity will be more of a concern, although it should still be manageable. About 7,000 pphpd were anticipated to be travelling eastbound into Eglinton West Station at peak hour if the line were extended to Renforth. That's a volume-to-capacity ratio of 0.45. It's very hard for me to imagine an extension to Hurontario more than doubling the eastbound peak ridership into Eglinton West Station, so I don't see capacity being an issue there either. It's very unlikely that travellers from Mississauga will be making the trip all the way to Eglinton West. Especially when we consider the that GO RER and the Ontario Line will both likely be in place to receive crowding west of Eglinton West.

If I had to take a half educated guess, I'd say that any Eglinton Crosstown extension to 'sauga will primarily be used to travel between Hurontario and Renforth Gateway to access the Airport employment lands.

It's important to remember that the travel destination on the Eglinton Line are a lot less concentrated than what we see on Line 2. With Line 2, the AM peak alightings are primarily at Bloor-Yonge, St. George and Pape (when the Ontario Line opens). This means that on-train crowding will continue to increase until the train reaches on of those three stations. With the Eglinton Line, those AM peak alightings would UTSC, Kennedy, Don Mills, Yonge, Eglinton West, Mount Dennis, Renforth Gateway (Airport) and Hurontario. That means that despite the length of the Crosstown, the multitude of destination stations along its route will keep peak ridership low.

If the Eglinton Crosstown doesn't need 10,000+ ppdph of capacity on day 1 I can't help but see that as a failure, it has an incredibly important existing bus route and is the only proper crosstown line in the city besides Bloor. It is mind boggling that in a city this large we would expect so little demand, that's only the same as a few successful bus routes peak capacity.

And by the way, the section East of Yonge should be busy, its going to have two of the busiest bus routes in the city (Don Mills and Lawrence East) feeding into it, if it doesn't attract people at Kennedy, maybe a slow tram line shouldn't have been the second crosstown.
 

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