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Eglinton West LRT | Metrolinx

denfromoakvillemilton

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I feel like at this point any attempt branch off of the Eglinton Line won't really end up working out well, especially on the west end. The Eglinton West Subway is a project that carries a lot of weight on its shoulders. Not only will it be a major way for people from Etobicoke and Mississauga to get to Pearson Airport, but it will connect to a major transitway going to Mississauga (and that will eventually have a downtown subway under S1), and the entire corridor is planned to have a ton of density as part of the TOC initiative done by the province. Finally this is going to be the primary route linking Mississauga and Midtown Toronto. Some time ago, Reece Martin had an interview with Phil Verster, and during that interview Phil something very interesting, where he talked about the need to be commercially astute with transit projects, and seeing where to cut out the fat. Now a direct example he gave was the cancelling of the Scarborough Junction project and the realignment of the LSE corridor tracks, but he also brought up the lack of needing to build the Missing Link, and that Milton RER could be provided via other more fiscally conservative means. The way I personally interpreted this is that in some ways it seems like Metrolinx is seemingly looking at Eglinton West as a replacement for Milton RER, on top of all of its other responsibilities.

Now what is my point with all of this? In short, I really don't see a scenerio in which the Jane LRT interoperating with Eglinton ever happens. Eglinton is already going to suffer from serious capacity limitations due to the vehicle types, and has a limit to how frequently trains can arrive due to the existence of the at grade segment in Scarborough so its unlikely we're going to see trains arriving at headways sooner than every 4 mins. Maybe if Sunnybrooke Park gets some extremely strong signal priority or gets grade separated, we can have the core section of the Eglinton Line between Jane and Don Mills running at every 2 minutes, which would leave Jane and Eglinton West at 4 minute headways, but even then I'm not sure if this is enough to handle the demand for Eglinton West in 30 years time. In short, if we choose to build Jane as an LRT, I highly doubt we have any room to squeeze the trains onto Eglinton. Best case scenerio we might see Jane parallel the Eglinton Line until Mt. Dennis, either on Eglinton or along the Kitchener Line corridor with the line connecting to the Mt. Dennis MSF, and maybe we can install a connecting track between the two in case we need to move trains around for various operational needs, however this is by no means anywhere reaching a necessity, and at best you're redoing the signaling on a Line just in the off chance you need to move a train around.
I agree. It won't interoperate at all. At best Jane will go to Bloor.
 

W. K. Lis

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I agree. It won't interoperate at all. At best Jane will go to Bloor.
Still needs to The Queensway (501 streetcar) and the proposed Park Lawn GO Station.

Helps in providing alternate routes in case of problems with Line 2 Bloor-Danforth or Line 5 Eglinton Crosstown LRT or even Line 6 Finch West LRT or Line 1 Spadina.
 

ARG1

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Indeed, the demand for Eglinton West originating from Mississauga is a big wild card.

The scale of that demand is hard to predict, because the pattern is virtually nonexistent today. There is no usable transit connection between Mississauga and Toronto Midtown. Only people in really desperate circumstances would consider using the Eg West or Lawrence West buses for that purpose. Everyone else either drives or chooses their residence or employment to avoid such a commute altogether.

Once EWLRT connects to Mississauga Transitway at Renforth, a somewhat decent transit option for such trips will be created, and surely some people will use it. But how many, remains to be seen. This is still not a perfect option, with a transfer at Renforth and potentially two more transfers to/from local routes in the beginning and at the end of the trip.

With that in mind, I can think of Jane LRT being a branch of Eglinton temporarily, before the Eglinton West demand reaches its full level. And later, Jane LRT gets de-branched from Eglinton and extended to Bloor instead.
Even then I feel like the prospects of extending the Jane LRT south to Bloor is sort of self defeating. You're going to need to tunnel the entire section, and you're going to pay the full cost of tunneling in a low demand area, while not receiving any of the benefits that come from tunneling the line. If we were to build a north south LRT line somewhere in Etobicoke, we should probably just build it on Kipling, and maybe have a Canada Line style line along Jane with extremely short platforms, tunneled south of Lawrence and Elevated North of that. It won't be able to directly integrate to any of the other LRT lines, but it would do far better from a value proposition considering the geography and how much tunneling would inevitably be required. Heck if you want, you can make it as part of the western extension of the Ontario Line.
 
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Streety McCarface

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Indeed, the demand for Eglinton West originating from Mississauga is a big wild card.

The scale of that demand is hard to predict, because the pattern is virtually nonexistent today. There is no usable transit connection between Mississauga and Toronto Midtown. Only people in really desperate circumstances would consider using the Eg West or Lawrence West buses for that purpose. Everyone else either drives or chooses their residence or employment to avoid such a commute altogether.

Once EWLRT connects to Mississauga Transitway at Renforth, a somewhat decent transit option for such trips will be created, and surely some people will use it. But how many, remains to be seen. This is still not a perfect option, with a transfer at Renforth and potentially two more transfers to/from local routes in the beginning and at the end of the trip.

With that in mind, I can think of Jane LRT being a branch of Eglinton temporarily, before the Eglinton West demand reaches its full level. And later, Jane LRT gets de-branched from Eglinton and extended to Bloor instead.
If Kipling-Islington is anything to go by, 40K PPD? Not terrible when you think about it. MiWay and Brampton Transit are getting better as time goes on, fare integration is inevitable, and development along the corridor is accelerating...a lot.

Honestly, when you actually think about how fast this trip may be, consider a trip from Square one to Dundas:
As is:
A. Via Eglinton
MiWay Express Bus to Renforth: 15 min
Line 5 to Eglinton-Yonge: 30 minutes (16 stations, similar to line 2, even though I think dwell times will play a role here)
Line 1 to Dundas: 10 mins

Altogether a 55 minute journey, round up to 1 hr for transfers.

B. Via GO:
You're SOL...to the point in which you're better off taking a GO Bus (which has huge risks due to the Gardiner). For the purposes of having a look though:
MiWay to Cooksville or Erindale: 10-15 min
Milton Line 35 minutes
Line 1: 5 minutes
Again, 55 minutes, round up to 1 hr.

So you're not actually saving any time using GO. Worse yet, you're transferring the same number of times, and adding risk to your trip since you're using regular city streets, and less frequent services.

As a mental exercise, Throw in 10K for the airport connection, and 60K as originally proposed, and conservatively, you're adding 100K people to the western segment of the crosstown (subtracted 10K from the estimate to account for the Eglinton West Bus connection at Mt Dennis). Considering the western segment of Line 2 sees about 250K users per day, and assuming the western segment of the Crosstown will see 100K passengers per day, you're looking close to line 2 capacities on the Crosstown west of the Allen, on trains that can carry 1/3 the number of people.
 

Rainforest

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If Kipling-Islington is anything to go by, 40K PPD? Not terrible when you think about it. MiWay and Brampton Transit are getting better as time goes on, fare integration is inevitable, and development along the corridor is accelerating...a lot.

Honestly, when you actually think about how fast this trip may be, consider a trip from Square one to Dundas:
As is:
A. Via Eglinton
MiWay Express Bus to Renforth: 15 min
Line 5 to Eglinton-Yonge: 30 minutes (16 stations, similar to line 2, even though I think dwell times will play a role here)
Line 1 to Dundas: 10 mins

Altogether a 55 minute journey, round up to 1 hr for transfers.

B. Via GO:
You're SOL...to the point in which you're better off taking a GO Bus (which has huge risks due to the Gardiner). For the purposes of having a look though:
MiWay to Cooksville or Erindale: 10-15 min
Milton Line 35 minutes
Line 1: 5 minutes
Again, 55 minutes, round up to 1 hr.

So you're not actually saving any time using GO. Worse yet, you're transferring the same number of times, and adding risk to your trip since you're using regular city streets, and less frequent services.

As a mental exercise, Throw in 10K for the airport connection, and 60K as originally proposed, and conservatively, you're adding 100K people to the western segment of the crosstown (subtracted 10K from the estimate to account for the Eglinton West Bus connection at Mt Dennis). Considering the western segment of Line 2 sees about 250K users per day, and assuming the western segment of the Crosstown will see 100K passengers per day, you're looking close to line 2 capacities on the Crosstown west of the Allen, on trains that can carry 1/3 the number of people.

I feel those numbers are too high, how can the west end of Line 2 handle 250K users per day? That would be 250K / 2 = 125K during the morning rush, or 125 / 3 = 42K per hour per direction. Line 2 doesn't even have that much capacity. Maybe, that's 250K users per day on the whole Line 2, split approximately in half between the west end and east end?

But either way, Line 5 built to the subway speed standard, and having a major feeder connection at Renforth, migh surprise on the upside .. and then we might regret the choosen vehicle and platform size.

Should have adhered fully to a single design paradigm. Either Transit City with minimal tunneling and surface running wherever possible, then the LRT train size would be sufficient. Or a subway / light metro style, then the trains need to be larger.

We are getting a hybrid, the Golden Mile section and the train size from Transit City, the west end from the light metro concept. That inconcistency might cause some grief.
 
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kamira51

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I feel those numbers are too high, how can the west end of Line 2 handle 250K users per day? That would be 250K / 2 = 125K during the morning rush, or 125 / 3 = 42K per hour per direction. Line 2 doesn't even have that much capacity. Maybe, that's 250K users per day on the whole Line 2, split approximately in half between the west end and east end?

But either way, Line 5 built to the subway speed standard, and having a major feeder connection at Renforth, migh surprise on the upside .. and then we might regret the choosen vehicle and platform size.

Should have adhered fully to a single design paradigm. Either Transit City with minimal tunneling and surface running wherever possible, then the LRT train size would be sufficient. Or a subway / light metro style, then the trains need to be larger.

We are getting a hybrid, the Golden Mile section and the train size from Transit City, the west end from the light metro concept. That inconcistency might cause some grief.
Gee, it's like they should've picked light metro technology from the very start 🙄
 

ARG1

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Especially if Eglinton East extension is also tunneled.
Well at the moment there is no evidence of that even being considered - only certain sections like Kennedy - Midland, Lawrence - Kingston, and a proposed tunnel for UTSC (although unlikely to happen).

However again, this leads to the potential need in the future to split up the Eglinton Line completely between the east and the west.
 

Rainforest

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Gee, it's like they should've picked light metro technology from the very start 🙄

Knowing that the western section will be tunneled; yes, it would be best to use light metro with higher capacity, and elevate or tunnel the eastern section.

Or, follow the original Transit City pattern, with large at-grade sections both west and east; that would work as well.
 

Rainforest

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Well at the moment there is no evidence of that even being considered - only certain sections like Kennedy - Midland, Lawrence - Kingston, and a proposed tunnel for UTSC (although unlikely to happen).

However again, this leads to the potential need in the future to split up the Eglinton Line completely between the east and the west.

I don't see a need of full split though. More likely, the west section will have more trains and half of them will turn back at Brentcliffe.
 

ARG1

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I don't see a need of full split though. More likely, the west section will have more trains and half of them will turn back at Brentcliffe.
First I hope its not brentcliffe, and they instead find a way to be able to consistently short turn at Science Center, either by grade separating SP or adding extremely strong signal priority, heck even boom gates might be needed.

Second and most importantly however, a major problem with such a large line is what happens on one end will directly impact the other. We see this with Line 1 where a delay at Yorkdale can impact the reliability of the Yonge section. Now we're applying this to a line that is longer, and is at grade. In other words, say there's a car accident on the line around UTSC, that will likely cause significant delays and slowdowns for people travelling through etobicoke from the Airport.
 

W. K. Lis

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One problem I can see is the slowdown of trains at the terminal or crossovers. We'll likely see trains slow down, crawl, or even stop between the second last station and the terminal station, before it enters the terminal station.

met-ops-terminal.gif


The legacy streetcar network uses loops.
met-ops-loop.gif


In Montréal, and other cities, they use a reversing track, or tail track, to reverse. They should have done this with all new rapid transit lines, but being Toronto, they don't want to change the status quo.
met-ops-siding.gif

From link.
 

Rainforest

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First I hope its not brentcliffe, and they instead find a way to be able to consistently short turn at Science Center, either by grade separating SP or adding extremely strong signal priority, heck even boom gates might be needed.

Second and most importantly however, a major problem with such a large line is what happens on one end will directly impact the other. We see this with Line 1 where a delay at Yorkdale can impact the reliability of the Yonge section. Now we're applying this to a line that is longer, and is at grade. In other words, say there's a car accident on the line around UTSC, that will likely cause significant delays and slowdowns for people travelling through etobicoke from the Airport.

Brentcliffe isn't dramatically worse than Science Centre, as a turnback location. Consider it functionally double service west of Yonge only, but with nearly-empty short-turning trains going to Brentcliffe and back. Yes, some wasted in-service time with little passenger load, but on the scale of this line, that's a minor issue.

If the westbound train from Kennedy gets delayed between Warden and Vic Park .. well, there will be a gap in service at every westbound station, but the stations west of Brentcliffe will just get 2 consecutive trains that short-turned at Brentcliffe. Not the end of the world.

After all, we don't expect the YUS line to be split into 2 or 3 segments in order to avoid the delay propagation. I don't see the reason to treat Line 5 differently.
 

ARG1

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Brentcliffe isn't dramatically worse than Science Centre, as a turnback location. Consider it functionally double service west of Yonge only, but with nearly-empty short-turning trains going to Brentcliffe and back. Yes, some wasted in-service time with little passenger load, but on the scale of this line, that's a minor issue.

If the westbound train from Kennedy gets delayed between Warden and Vic Park .. well, there will be a gap in service at every westbound station, but the stations west of Brentcliffe will just get 2 consecutive trains that short-turned at Brentcliffe. Not the end of the world.

After all, we don't expect the YUS line to be split into 2 or 3 segments in order to avoid the delay propagation. I don't see the reason to treat Line 5 differently.
Science Center is a far more important transfer point because of the Ontario Line connection. Forcing all trains to short turn earlier because of a single at grade crossing is just sad.

Sure, but any form of delay will have serious knock on effects. Remember we're considering Eglinton here including the Eglinton East extension, so now if you want to transfer to the Ontario Line northbound, or even trying to reach Scarborough Center, you know have to get off your train, wait for another train to pass, and them maybe you can now continue east just to ride it out 2 stops, all because of some accident at UTSC. The thing about YUS is that while delays do happen due to its length, at least its fully grade separated so the causes of delays are limited to some guy decided to run on the tracks, or someone held the door. With Eglinton, trains in Etobicoke can be delayed due to anything from some passenger taking too long to cross, to a car resting on the tracks because of congestion, a car accident, poorly timed traffic signals, or some idiot walking along the tracks (far easier and far more likely compared to the subway).
 

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