Danforth Line 2 Scarborough Subway Extension

[H4F33Z]

Bus terminals are proposed for every station. A four-bay bus terminal at the southwest corner of Lawrence and McCowan, A 16-bay for Scarborough Centre with 7 for GO/Durham, and a 19-bay for Sheppard/McCowan. The document mentions time savings of 7-10 minutes but they don't include Line 3 because it "will reach the end of its serviceable life." I noticed that the presentation boards seem to sugarcoat the line which was much different than the IBC. There are also way too many typos in the documents.

 

[Johnny Au]

With Scarborough being 50% bigger, it would likely Scarborough be divided into 2 cities. Maybe Scarborough and then Guildwood. Without the Scarborough bluffs, Scarborough wouldn't even be called Scarborough!

I envision something like this with the 401 dipping south

View attachment 234139

Scarborough would be called Glasgow (see the Etymology section):

Scarborough, Ontario - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Given the size of the township, it could have been split in half with either North and South Glasgow or East and West Glasgow.

Likewise, Pickering would be extended further south into the lake (which could lead to a new township between Uxbridge and Pickering (perhaps call it Altona after the settlement where the new township would otherwise be)).

 

[Coolstar]

Bus terminals are proposed for every station. A four-bay bus terminal at the southwest corner of Lawrence and McCowan, A 16-bay for Scarborough Centre with 7 for GO/Durham, and a 19-bay for Sheppard/McCowan. The document mentions time savings of 7-10 minutes but they don't include Line 3 because it "will reach the end of its serviceable life." I noticed that the presentation boards seem to sugarcoat the line which was much different than the IBC. There are also way too many typos in the documents.

Did you catch the one saying "Line 2 at Kennedy" even though the train is at Bloor-Yonge? The presentation was clearly rushed without care.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

Funny enough. this slide right here demonstrates why, even back when I lived in Scarborough (near UTSC), why I was so staunchly opposed to the Scarborough Subway Extension proposal.

Metrolinx, you mean to tell me that after investing some $4.5 Billion in capital expenditures to build the SSE, you're projecting that from the furthest reaches of Scarborough (my old area), this thing would save me a whopping seven minutes on my ~1 hr 15 min commute Downtown? Like, are you kidding me? This isn't a selling point Metrolinx; it's laughable.

Over time I've some to support the subway extension, but only because we've been going in circles about this for nearly twenty years. I could very easily be persuaded to support cancelling the Line 2 extension and mothballing the SRT entirely (the SRT is something I never found to be particularly useful), in favour of building a network of BRT across Scarbrough, improvements to GO regional transit, and perhaps the construction of the Relief Line North. I've run the numbers on those options before, and unlike the SSE, those would've shaved an enormous amount of time off my commute both within Scarborough, and between Scarborough and Downtown. The Scarborough Subway has no reason to exist with this network in place.

There's absolutely no way that given a $4.5 Billion investment, this thing is what would yield the greatest time savings for people in Scarbrough. Yea, we're gonna spend $4.5 Billion on three underground stations to save a tiny subset of Scarborough commuters a few minutes on their hour long commute. Meanwhile, for the other 90% of transit users in Scarborough, their commutes will get substantially worse as congestion on the streets increase. That commute from UTSC to Kennedy was already insufferable five years ago; imagine what it'll be like in 10 years.

But yay, come 2030, you'll be able to ride to Scarborough Centre in the darkness of an underground train.

 

[Streety McCarface]

Funny enough. this slide right here demonstrates why, even back when I lived in Scarborough (near UTSC), why I was so staunchly opposed to the Scarborough Subway Extension proposal.

Metrolinx, you mean to tell me that after investing some $4.5 Billion in capital expenditures to build the SSE, you're projecting that from the furthest reaches of Scarborough (my old area), this thing would save me a whopping seven minutes on my ~1 hr 15 min commute Downtown? Like, are you kidding me? This isn't a selling point Metrolinx; it's laughable.

Over time I've some to support the subway extension, but only because we've been going in circles about this for nearly twenty years. I could very easily be persuaded to support cancelling the Line 2 extension and mothballing the SRT entirely (the SRT is something I never found to be particularly useful), in favour of building a network of BRT across Scarbrough, improvements to GO regional transit, and perhaps the construction of the Relief Line North. I've run the numbers on those options before, and unlike the SSE, those would've shaved an enormous amount of time off my commute both within Scarborough, and between Scarborough and Downtown. The Scarborough Subway has no reason to exist with this network in place.

But yay, come 2030, you'll be able to ride to Scarborough Centre in the darkness of an underground train. Woot woot. Rest of your commutes will still be just as shitty though!

View attachment 234346

It's really an ill-thought-out travel plan. Wait times at the station for the subway are not going to be 1 minute, they're going to be two on average. Bus wait times are not going to be 2 minutes, they're going to be at least 4, and they're going to be inconsistent. Finally, if you're going from the same spot at the STC, the walk is going to be the same, it's not like people are taking buses to go 250 meters from the edge of the STC parking lot to the station. The true-time savings is actually closer to 19 minutes. Journey times will be far more predictable as well, given that you're not relying on a bus.

Also, for the first one, it would be 36 minutes on the subway going by their own math.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

Funny enough. this slide right here demonstrates why, even back when I lived in Scarborough (near UTSC), why I was so staunchly opposed to the Scarborough Subway Extension proposal.

Metrolinx, you mean to tell me that after investing some $4.5 Billion in capital expenditures to build the SSE, you're projecting that from the furthest reaches of Scarborough (my old area), this thing would save me a whopping seven minutes on my ~1 hr 15 min commute Downtown? Like, are you kidding me? This isn't a selling point Metrolinx; it's laughable.

Over time I've some to support the subway extension, but only because we've been going in circles about this for nearly twenty years. I could very easily be persuaded to support cancelling the Line 2 extension and mothballing the SRT entirely (the SRT is something I never found to be particularly useful), in favour of building a network of BRT across Scarbrough, improvements to GO regional transit, and perhaps the construction of the Relief Line North. I've run the numbers on those options before, and unlike the SSE, those would've shaved an enormous amount of time off my commute both within Scarborough, and between Scarborough and Downtown. The Scarborough Subway has no reason to exist with this network in place.

There's absolutely no way that given a $4.5 Billion investment, this thing is what would yield the greatest time savings for people in Scarbrough. Yea, we're gonna spend $4.5 Billion on three underground stations to save a tiny subset of Scarborough commuters a few minutes on their hour long commute. Meanwhile, for the other 90% of transit users in Scarborough, their commutes will get substantially worse as congestion on the streets increase. That commute from UTSC to Kennedy was already insufferable five years ago; imagine what it'll be like in 10 years.

But yay, come 2030, you'll be able to ride to Scarborough Centre in the darkness of an underground train.

View attachment 234346

Imagine someone from UTSC looking at this display board thinking, "WOW, my commute is gonna go from an hour and twenty minutes, to an hour and thirteen minutes. Incredible!"

Yea, I can't imagine it either.

 

[44 North]

Bus terminals are proposed for every station. A four-bay bus terminal at the southwest corner of Lawrence and McCowan, A 16-bay for Scarborough Centre with 7 for GO/Durham, and a 19-bay for Sheppard/McCowan. The document mentions time savings of 7-10 minutes but they don't include Line 3 because it "will reach the end of its serviceable life." I noticed that the presentation boards seem to sugarcoat the line which was much different than the IBC. There are also way too many typos in the documents.

I didn't see typos (tho the mangled GO symbol on the third page stood out).

So it seems they are going to use TBM. I actually thought they might try cut and cover to keep it shallower and reduce costs. It does say TBM extraction at Lawrence, so maybe they plan to bridge W. Highland which would be new.

 

[OneCity]

It's really an ill-thought-out travel plan. Wait times at the station for the subway are not going to be 1 minute, they're going to be two on average. Bus wait times are not going to be 2 minutes, they're going to be at least 4, and they're going to be inconsistent. Finally, if you're going from the same spot at the STC, the walk is going to be the same, it's not like people are taking buses to go 250 meters from the edge of the STC parking lot to the station. The true-time savings is actually closer to 19 minutes. Journey times will be far more predictable as well, given that you're not relying on a bus.

Also, for the first one, it would be 36 minutes on the subway going by their own math.

Bus frequency should be fairly consistent once the BRT is constructed along Ellesmere. Whether comparing bus or RT, removing the secondary point of failure, especially in the winter months will alleviate major frustration and extra delay.

 

[Steve X]

I didn't see typos (tho the mangled GO symbol on the third page stood out).

So it seems they are going to use TBM. I actually thought they might try cut and cover to keep it shallower and reduce costs. It does say TBM extraction at Lawrence, so maybe they plan to bridge W. Highland which would be new.

If anyone bother to read the Preliminary Design Business Case (it's one step ahead of Eg West which is just an IBC), it outlines how they'll tunnel using 2 TBM.

How will the tunnel be constructed?
The indicative construction schedule assumes the use of two tunnel boring machines (TBM), with one
launched southward from the future station box at Sheppard and McCowan and another launched eastward
on Eglinton Avenue East between Midland Road and Commonwealth Avenue. The tunnel drive logistics are
based on an analysis that indicates that a 2 TBM scenario represents a schedule savings compared to a
single TBM schedule.
The first TBM will proceed south along McCowan Road to an extraction shaft located on the Scarborough
Rouge Hospital property immediately north of Lawrence Avenue East. The second TBM will proceed east
and north along Eglinton Avenue East, Danforth Road and McCowan Road, to the same extraction shaft.
Open cut construction methods are expected to be used, with appropriate support of excavation, for the
launch and extraction shafts, the three stations, all emergency exit building locations as well as the transition
area between Kennedy Station and the south TBM launch shaft.

It implies they'll fit both tracks in the same tunnel.

Lawrence East Station would be built at the excavation shaft.

 

[OneCity]

If anyone bother to read the Preliminary Design Business Case (it's one step ahead of Eg West which is just an IBC), it outlines how they'll tunnel using 2 TBM.


It implies they'll fit both tracks in the same tunnel.

Lawrence East Station would be built at the excavation shaft.

You are correct, the tunnel is direct to the hospital and looking at the aggressive timeline to RFP the tunnel, there really would not be room for any major modification. Any change to the tunnel design would have added atleast another year on.

Safe to assume nothing significant came out of the panel review for this line atleast.

https://www.cp24.com/news/province-to-convene-expert-panel-to-consider-changes-to-two-subway-extensions-1.4548067

One of the more interesting details to watch will be the change in the SCS design.

"The design for the three stop subway is currently being advanced by Metrolinx in preparation for Treasury
Board approvals to start procurement. A TPAP addendum is currently underway for the new stations,
including the extension to Sheppard and McCowan, and the scope changes along the original alignment
(e.g. revised SCS location, launch shaft at Kennedy and Midland). This addendum will be completed by the
Tunnel Contract Request For Proposal release date"

 

[OneCity]

Imagine someone from UTSC looking at this display board thinking, "WOW, my commute is gonna go from an hour and twenty minutes, to an hour and thirteen minutes. Incredible!"

Yea, I can't imagine it either.

I'm sure they'll get over the pain of saving 15 minutes a day.

As someone who still takes this route on an even longer commute certain days of the week, I greatly appreciate any time savings and any detailed efficiencies we can add to leave a better long term legacy when upgrading major infrastructure

 

[innsertnamehere]

What makes it worse is if the Eglinton East LRT is built.. It should cut the travel time to 26 minutes from Kennedy to UTSC, which will make it 3 minutes faster to take the Eglinton East LRT than to take the bus to the subway.

That said, if BRT is implemented on Ellesmere as a part of the Durham BRT project, bus travel times would improve and likely make the subway competitive again.

Of course the fastest way to do that trip in the future will actually be to take the LRT to Eglinton GO and hop on a train there to downtown, then transfer to the subway.

4 min walk to LRT
10 min LRT ride
1 min walk to GO Platform
7.5 min wait
14 min GO ride to Union (per RER Business Case)
3 min walk to subway
1 min wait
8 min subway ride
4 min walk

Total: 53 minutes.

 

[Streety McCarface]

What makes it worse is if the Eglinton East LRT is built.. It should cut the travel time to 26 minutes from Kennedy to UTSC, which will make it 3 minutes faster to take the Eglinton East LRT than to take the bus to the subway.

That said, if BRT is implemented on Ellesmere as a part of the Durham BRT project, bus travel times would improve and likely make the subway competitive again.

Of course the fastest way to do that trip in the future will actually be to take the LRT to Eglinton GO and hop on a train there to downtown, then transfer to the subway.

4 min walk to LRT
10 min LRT ride
1 min walk to GO Platform
7.5 min wait
14 min GO ride to Union (per RER Business Case)
3 min walk to subway
1 min wait
8 min subway ride
4 min walk

Total: 53 minutes.

If the LRT ride is 26 minutes from kennedy to UTSC, then the LRT ride would actually be closer to 20-25 minutes. The current 905 takes 18 minutes outside of the peak hours and only stops at 9 stops (compared to the LRT's 12 stops). You also forgot to factor in 2 minutes for LRT wait time.

GO currently takes 20 minutes from Eglinton to Union. With additional stops, it won't decrease by 30%. It won't even decrease by 30% with EMUs and electrification assuming no additional stops are added between Union and Eglinton GO.

With these additional assumptions, the true trip time becomes 71 minutes — The same as the current subway proposal.

Guildwood GO is another story. That is a 10 minute LRT ride, but the GO ride itself becomes 25 minutes. The walk from the LRT station to the GO station increases to 4 minutes as well. There is still a 2-minute wait for the LRT.

This trip is 66 minutes — 4 minutes faster than the current subway proposal, but with the assumption that there's BRT on Ellesmere. With BRT, the trip will likely decrease by 4-5 minutes.

It's also worth noting that the current bussing time from UTSC to Scarborough center on an express bus is actually 14 minutes, not 20. So really, even if you do transfer at Guildwood, the bus to subway would still be faster.

 

[salsa]

Imagine someone from UTSC looking at this display board thinking, "WOW, my commute is gonna go from an hour and twenty minutes, to an hour and thirteen minutes. Incredible!"

Yea, I can't imagine it either.

I'm sure they'll get over the pain of saving 15 minutes a day.

Let's not forger that these "savings" are compared against a straw-man base scenario that assumes the Scarborough RT does not exist, but is replaced with buses. So the actual time saving from the status quo today would be substantially less than what this bogus report want's you to believe.

 

[Streety McCarface]

Let's not forger that these "savings" are compared against a straw-man base scenario that assumes the Scarborough RT does not exist, but is replaced with buses. So the actual time saving from the status quo today is substantially less than what this bogus report want's you to believe.

The RT only serves Scarborough Centre, but the subway is an 8-minute journey. The RT journey is 11 minutes without the transfer, 18 minutes with the transfer (4 minute wait time on average, the additional minute for the slow entry into Kennedy station (blind trip), plus a 2-minute walk). The RT takes 10 additional minutes over the subway when traveling to Scarborough Town Centre only.

Those living north of there will save at least 4 minutes by having a station at Sheppard (12 minutes if they don't have to bus to the new station), and those using the Lawrence bus will save at least 9 minutes.

These numbers don't sound like a lot, but it quickly adds up in terms of man-hours lost: 15 minutes each way is 30 minutes roundtrip — 2.5 hrs a week, 120 hours per year PER PERSON. That's 3000$ in lost productivity. If this is going to end up costing the average household 100$ in taxes per year for capital costs, that, to me, is a bargain.